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Author Topic: Karlheinz Stockhausen  (Read 20523 times)
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #60 on: 13:42:46, 09-06-2007 »

Quote
I would like to know in what way in particular either Richard or harmonyharmony think that the process of 'taking a "parameter" to its maximum value and then going further - going "off the page"' is worthwhile in terms of the sonic results thus produced.
I think you would have to listen to the results and then you either hear it or you don't.

We find this response deeply unsatisfactory. It is so vague as to be meaningless! We have never been so mystical as to say a) it exists but b) it is inexpressible in any way in language. So let us know much much more about the all-important results of Stockhausen's deliberate distortion! A whole great tradition of aesthetic discourse has been built up over the centuries and one does not have to be a Tovey to avail oneself of its grand and proven array of terminology. Every true musician must know those terms like the back of his hand and have them all at his fingertips.

Start if we may suggest by telling us what one of these "parameters" actually is and giving us an example or two. Then continue (go further) by explaining how its "maximum value" is not a maximum at all! - because jolly old Stockhausen "goes further". We should have thought a maximum is a maximum - unless we are going all Hegelian and sublating ourselves, even. Is it maximum possible, maximum permissible within the bounds of good taste, or what? Finally we remain unsatisfied with the expression "all-important." We had initially thought or understood the meaning to be that the exceeding of the maximum which is not a real maximum was all-important in the process of the composer's assignment of value to the music. But now we hear that that is not so at all; the all-importance is not for the music but for the critical process. Let us get this straight: the distortion is not all-important for the music (so it doesn't matter if Stockhausen goes over the maximum or not); but it is nevertheless in some as yet unexplained way all-important for the connoisseurs (if such truly exist). What mystification!
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richard barrett
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« Reply #61 on: 13:46:37, 09-06-2007 »

Yes, but I'm asking how?
I really do think you just need to listen, Ian, and (as Stockhausen would say) put your receiver on the right wavelength.

We find this response deeply unsatisfactory. It is so vague as to be meaningless!
In the immortal words of Windsor Davies:

"Oh dear.
What a pity.
Never mind."

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Ian Pace
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« Reply #62 on: 13:50:04, 09-06-2007 »

Yes, but I'm asking how?
I really do think you just need to listen, Ian, and (as Stockhausen would say) put your receiver on the right wavelength.

For a start, I do listen to Stockhausen a great deal (and play him regularly), and I'm also studying his 1950s work quite intensely at the moment in the context of investigating the history of post-war West German music. But you made an assertion as to the importance of an aspect of Stockhausen's work - I am asking you how exactly this importance manifests itself in sound, which I would have thought is quite fundamental for such an assertion to hold up.

Furthermore, who determines (or has the right to determine) what the 'right wavelength' is within which to approach and listen to any music?

It sometimes seems as if various Stockhausen advocates have to insulate their discourse almost exclusively from anyone who comes at it from a different angle. Perhaps those people are inferior listeners and students of the work, as they do not approach it from the 'right wavelength', which the small few have it in their power to determine?
« Last Edit: 13:53:57, 09-06-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #63 on: 13:55:53, 09-06-2007 »

I am asking you how exactly this importance manifests itself in sound
Yes I know, and you don't like the only answer I can give you, so I guess there's no further to go in this particular direction.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #64 on: 14:13:15, 09-06-2007 »

I would like to have that performance on a DVD. I remember seeing myself sitting in the audience. Wink

A DVD which managed to capture Biroc having a Stockhausen-inspired out-of-body experience would be of even greater interest Smiley.

It was Pim who was at the gig, not me (it's Pim's quote!)... Wink

Roll Eyes
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
richard barrett
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« Reply #65 on: 14:55:19, 09-06-2007 »

Here's an instruction from the explanatory notes of Spiral, explaining what to do with the "Spiral signs" which crop up at intervals in the score (bear in mind that the terms "transposing" and "parameters" have been defined elsewhere in the explanatory apparatus and have precise but not necessarily orthodox connotations here):

"Repeat the previous event several times, transposing each time in all parameters, and transcend it beyond the limits of your previous playing / singing technique and then also beyond the limitations of your instrument / voice. This instruction applies to all visual and theatrical possibilities. From this point, retain what you have experienced in the extension of your limits, and use it in this and all future performances of SPIRAL."

If you perform the entire piece, which in Michael Vetter's version (and as far as I know he's the only performer to have attempted to perform the piece in its entirety, and one of the very few to have tried seriously to get to the bottom of it) takes almost two hours, one comes seven times across the symbol carrying this instruction. This then (referring to another thread) perhaps counts as the "most difficult piece of music ever written". Vetter has some interesting things to say about what this means to him as a performer. Looked at from another perspective, though, what Stockhausen is talking about here is the kind of self-transcendence which, in various guises, is the unstated goal of a great deal of musical performance, whether of Stockhausen's music or not, whether one accepts a term like "transcendence" at face value or not.
« Last Edit: 15:00:02, 09-06-2007 by richard barrett » Logged
ahinton
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« Reply #66 on: 21:53:51, 09-06-2007 »

In the immortal words of Windsor Davies:

"Oh dear.
What a pity.
Never mind."


Nice to have the Welsh take on things here, Richard - and who better than you to supply it?!...

Best,

Alistair
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #67 on: 22:07:42, 09-06-2007 »

Let me preface what I will say by asserting that Stockhausen was one of the most conceptually sophisticated composers of all time, so when he sometimes "bit off more than he could chew", then usually it meant he bit off more than a human being can chew.

As Richard said, Stockhausen tried to employ serial technique to solve any and all musical problems that he felt could be addressed with it. Whenever a decision about any parameter was made, KS would consult his row or a particular manifestation thereof; the row itself and the order in which decisions were made, and about which parameters, is what decided the character, total duration, and all other features of the piece. The extent to which he followed through with this principle was, at all stages of his career and the development of serial tools, further than that of his contemporaries (I welcome contradictions on this point!).

Example: the 'traditional' serial parameters were pitch, duration, timbre, and dynamic. Though there never was an explicit "theory of serialism" at the time, register was not one of the parameters. Boulez in Structures Ia decided this parameter "freely", though one can observe some interesting ad hoc decisions on this front that can only be called "composing." Stockhausen, however, devised a serial approach to register as well in Kreuzspiel. Other kinds of systematic determinations of register can be found in the Electronic Studies from around the same time. One can evaluate this degree of self-imposed "unfreedom" how one likes; I am not trying to pass a value judgement in the Anal-Retentive Olympics.

Even with all this conviction, there is no end to the number of ways in which KS found ways to abandon the serial Flechtwerk ('scuse me) momentarily to, as it were, take Stock ('scuse me again) of the musical situation. These moments are, I think, among the saving graces of his music, showing him to be a keen abstract thinker but also one who refused to regard the row or rows or super-formulas as unbending authorities.

Example: the willfully interjected percussion "break" in Gruppen. Don't have a score here now, but others are welcome to submit examples... This is not the result of careful research..

The piece from this period of strong conviction that I know best is Klavierstueck X, in which his stated intention is to bite off much more than he could chew, i.e., to create a serial organization that, remarkably enough, mediates between order and disorder. There's Character I (maximum 'order') and Character VII (maximum 'disorder'). We learn a lot about his concept of order by studying this work closely and observing the kinds of decisions he makes to help underscore this process, and which parameters are minimized and which maximized to achieve a sense of 'order'. The definition of order is left enticingly vague in the program note: he lets fly with words like Durchhoerbarkeit, or aural clarity, and Vertruebung, or obfuscation, but for the sake of mystery or poesy, he doesn't make it more precise than that.

It would be easy to object at this point: how can something represent disorder if all of its parameters are precisely determined by serial technique? Is not only randomness truly disorderly? Ah but then one is conflating 'order' and 'organization'! Yes. Hm. Not sure what the difference is... more about that later.

Onward!

Anyhow, here's the delightful moment of contradiction: once the two extremes have been determined, i.e., Character I is 'order', and Character VII is 'disorder', with Character IV as the middle state, he decides to begin the piece by illustrating a state of maximum 'disorder' by creating a version of the entire piece in fast-forward, in other words, the seven Phases of the main piece are compressed into the length of one single phase. Of course, now Characters I through VII are shuffled together like a mind-boggling maelstrom, thus sacrificing from the very start their roles as purported extremes.

Am I making sense? In the end, having subjected the piece to extended study, I still cannot decide whether to consider Character I as order and Character VII as disorder, or whether the two taken together represent states of chaos with Character IV as the real place of order (repose? balance?). Stockhausen was either a complete and stubborn buffoon when it came to the dialectics of such philosophical concepts as order and disorder -- or he knew very well that the only way to make this piece work was to allow this contradiction to stand. Considering some of the smaller decisions that take place throughout, I am inclined toward the latter interpretation. Am I being too charitable to the old man?
« Last Edit: 04:21:45, 10-06-2007 by Chafing Dish » Logged
Bryn
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« Reply #68 on: 22:15:24, 09-06-2007 »

In the immortal words of Windsor Davies:

"Oh dear.
What a pity.
Never mind."


Nice to have the Welsh take on things here, Richard - and who better than you to supply it?!...

Best,

Alistair

"What a pity" that Richard's was a misquote though. "How sad"! Wink
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #69 on: 23:38:46, 09-06-2007 »

rouge






windsor and newton's are just watercolours





 Grin I really love Hymnen
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #70 on: 00:27:08, 10-06-2007 »

But listening to it on my iPod is really not the same as on LP.
I've got to the breathing stage which I've always thought was wonderfully amplified by the sound of the record on the turntable.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
richard barrett
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« Reply #71 on: 01:05:58, 10-06-2007 »

or he knew very well that the only way to make this piece work was to allow this contradiction to stand. Considering some of the smaller decisions that take place throughout, I am inclined toward the latter interpretation. Am I being too charitable to the old man?
I don't think you are at all, I think you're touching upon one of the more important (if I may use that word!) of KS's contributions to musical thinking - not, indeed, providing the answers, but posing the questions in a way that nobody else had thought of doing. This, however, might be what separates things like the 10th piano piece with what he's written since the late 70s - those risks aren't being taken any more.

I suddenly have the feeling that what I've just written is either total nonsense or painfully obvious. I should look at it again in the morning. Goodnight all.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #72 on: 01:20:51, 10-06-2007 »

This, however, might be what separates things like the 10th piano piece with what he's written since the late 70s - those risks aren't being taken any more.
These risks aren't being taken by very many composers at all any more...
I'm reminded of this:
It does sound a mite dated, don't you think? Not sure I can pinpoint why - perhaps the rather naive quality of the music, that sort of unqualified optimism and sense of progress?
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #73 on: 04:33:09, 10-06-2007 »

or he knew very well that the only way to make this piece work was to allow this contradiction to stand. Considering some of the smaller decisions that take place throughout, I am inclined toward the latter interpretation. Am I being too charitable to the old man?
I don't think you are at all, I think you're touching upon one of the more important (if I may use that word!) of KS's contributions to musical thinking - not, indeed, providing the answers, but posing the questions in a way that nobody else had thought of doing.
But you can see why I'm ambivalent: the rest of his work and especially his writings are so drenched with a kind of positivism. I would like to see the maturity that I read into Klavierstueck X echoed in other pieces. As it is, he seems to have gotten spiritual and mystical at precisely the moments where his music approached contradiction. Here I draw upon Spahlinger's discussions of Zeitmasze from my student days -- the piece is supposed to represent shades of simultaneity of tempo, but it just comes across as various shades of density... and one doesn't get the sense of this contradiction being explored, investigated, or even acknowledged. Now perhaps I am being too uncharitable?? Benefit of hindsight?
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #74 on: 12:27:32, 10-06-2007 »

Sorry to interrupt.
I don't really know anything about Klavierstück X though it's on my list (I picked up the score cheaply when our department sold off their reading library).
I was just wondering if anyone knows if there's a legal problem with performances of Hymnen in Germany.
Wikipedia says that performances of the Horst-Wessel-Lied are illegal in Germany and surely the use of it in Hymnen is just asking for police action by an imagination-free bureaucrat.
Has this ever been an issue, or does the use of the taped studio conversation ('Otto Tomek says') cover his rear?
Just curious really.
Listening to the version with soloists now and I'm not really sure it does anything.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
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