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Author Topic: Elliott Carter  (Read 5583 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #135 on: 09:03:27, 25-07-2007 »

But for example the dynamics are (at least in the pieces I know from the inside) brought in without any kind of system and reasonably 'intuitively'; in a sense to point up the shapes that result from the systematised procedures rather than to add another layer of their own. Does the Schiff book allude to anything of the sort in Carter's music?
No, but I assume that Carter isn't interested in deploying dynamics systematically. Very few composers are of course, one possible reason being that this is the parameter most likely to be ignored or "reinterpreted" by performers. I often find that most of my comments to performers in rehearsal are to do with dynamics and particularly with giving them their full range.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #136 on: 09:07:55, 25-07-2007 »

But for example the dynamics are (at least in the pieces I know from the inside) brought in without any kind of system and reasonably 'intuitively'; in a sense to point up the shapes that result from the systematised procedures rather than to add another layer of their own. Does the Schiff book allude to anything of the sort in Carter's music?
No, but I assume that Carter isn't interested in deploying dynamics systematically. Very few composers are of course, one possible reason being that this is the parameter most likely to be ignored or "reinterpreted" by performers. I often find that most of my comments to performers in rehearsal are to do with dynamics and particularly with giving them their full range.
There's an anecdote that Rosen often quotes about Carter, concerning some players at a rehearsal of one of his orchestral pieces, who said 'Mr Carter, without playing the dynamics your music makes no sense', or words to that effect, to which he responded 'I though you were meant to play the dynamics?'.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #137 on: 09:27:44, 25-07-2007 »

things as ciphers whose acoustic properties may be arbitrary
Chris's take on that if I understood him correctly was (and for all I know still is) that precisely because pretty much any structural procedures he might use would be acoustically imperceptible (or effectively so) he would prefer to use as 'seed' material something which was in some way meaningful to him.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #138 on: 09:36:05, 25-07-2007 »

things as ciphers whose acoustic properties may be arbitrary
Chris's take on that if I understood him correctly was (and for all I know still is) that precisely because pretty much any structural procedures he might use would be acoustically imperceptible (or effectively so) he would prefer to use as 'seed' material something which was in some way meaningful to him.
Has he ever commented on any similarities to Donatoni in that respect? Or Clementi?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #139 on: 09:43:06, 25-07-2007 »

because pretty much any structural procedures he might use would be acoustically imperceptible (or effectively so)
An alternative would be to employ structural procedures which are perceptible, wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?
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ahinton
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« Reply #140 on: 09:54:50, 25-07-2007 »

But for example the dynamics are (at least in the pieces I know from the inside) brought in without any kind of system and reasonably 'intuitively'; in a sense to point up the shapes that result from the systematised procedures rather than to add another layer of their own. Does the Schiff book allude to anything of the sort in Carter's music?
No, but I assume that Carter isn't interested in deploying dynamics systematically. Very few composers are of course, one possible reason being that this is the parameter most likely to be ignored or "reinterpreted" by performers. I often find that most of my comments to performers in rehearsal are to do with dynamics and particularly with giving them their full range.
I know of what you speak. A while ago I recall saying to someone "can you please play this passage fff, the following one ff and the next one f; it made all the difference. That said, I do feel very fortunate in that, in general, I find myself having to say very little to performers in rehearsal - they usually know just what to do.

Best,

Alistair
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #141 on: 09:59:21, 25-07-2007 »

because pretty much any structural procedures he might use would be acoustically imperceptible (or effectively so)
An alternative would be to employ structural procedures which are perceptible, wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?
Of course it would be an alternative but I presume it's something he found less interesting and that he was in any case not uncomfortable with the idea of the structural level of the music being below the surface. Perhaps as well the things he had already found out he liked doing with notes weren't the kind of thing he wanted to discard.

Anyway, you all know where to find him. Wink
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richard barrett
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« Reply #142 on: 10:03:24, 25-07-2007 »

in general, I find myself having to say very little to performers in rehearsal - they usually know just what to do
I think I'm safe in assuming, though, that the dynamic indications in your work are somewhat less intricately detailed and "counterintuitive" than those in the output of some Members.
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #143 on: 13:58:21, 25-07-2007 »

things as ciphers whose acoustic properties may be arbitrary
Chris's take on that if I understood him correctly was (and for all I know still is) that precisely because pretty much any structural procedures he might use would be acoustically imperceptible (or effectively so) he would prefer to use as 'seed' material something which was in some way meaningful to him.

Well, there's no point in arguing with you about this, of course, but it's interesting to me (and perhaps revealing about Dench's compositional methods, about which I know essentially nothing) that he's conflating imperceptible structural methods with interchangability of the material thus operated upon.  Ian mentioned Aldo Clementi, who for me is the prime example of the opposite attitude; Clementi's canonic structures may be audible only in a general sense (and at their beginnings), but surely the particular (diatonic) properties of the "seed material" thus becomes all-important? 

In fact, it strikes me as more intuitive that highly audible structural processes would be more compatible with arbitrary starting places. Hence Donatoni's etwas ruhiger in Ausdruck, for example, or the Cage Billings pieces?

And since I should probably say something about Carter, I'm really torn about him; I react viscerally against his brand of reductive, almost caricatured "musical characterizations," and his instrumental writing often strikes me as infuriatingly middle-of-the-road.  But damned if I don't like a lot of the pieces more than I think I should.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #144 on: 14:18:54, 25-07-2007 »

I react viscerally against his brand of reductive, almost caricatured "musical characterizations," and his instrumental writing often strikes me as infuriatingly middle-of-the-road.  But damned if I don't like a lot of the pieces more than I think I should.
That's pretty similar to what I was trying to say - if I'd read the analyses and not heard the music, I would imagine it isn't worth bothering with, whereas in audible reality it often comes alive with a vividness that seems to contradict the supposed banality of these "characters". However, I much prefer his orchestral music to the smaller-scale works, and this could perhaps be because the "caricatures" get blurred into something more interesting.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #145 on: 14:20:45, 25-07-2007 »

it's interesting to me (and perhaps revealing about Dench's compositional methods, about which I know essentially nothing) that he's conflating imperceptible structural methods with interchangability of the material thus operated upon.
Have you read the Toop articles then? I think they're worth a look if you want to know a bit more about why Chris does these things the way he does. Obviously it's a point of view thing whether you want such things to be foreground-audible or not; I certainly can't imagine Chris wanting to do something like etwas ruhiger, and like Clementi even less so even though to an extent they all have something to do with the 'crisis of material' whatsit. Could be worth reading the Toop articles or, ahem, even the article by one Carl Rosman in Musik & Ästhetik 17 (January 2001), although for the last one you'd need either to read German or know someone who could send you a translation... Wink
« Last Edit: 14:22:31, 25-07-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #146 on: 14:37:06, 25-07-2007 »

or know someone who could send you a translation...
Don't bother translating it, the original English would be good enough for me, thanks.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #147 on: 14:50:05, 25-07-2007 »

I react viscerally against his brand of reductive, almost caricatured "musical characterizations," and his instrumental writing often strikes me as infuriatingly middle-of-the-road.  But damned if I don't like a lot of the pieces more than I think I should.
That's pretty similar to what I was trying to say - if I'd read the analyses and not heard the music, I would imagine it isn't worth bothering with, whereas in audible reality it often comes alive with a vividness that seems to contradict the supposed banality of these "characters". However, I much prefer his orchestral music to the smaller-scale works, and this could perhaps be because the "caricatures" get blurred into something more interesting.
Me too - I agree with both of you, and in fact I've a feeling I mentioned this much earlier in the thread in terms of a comparison with the composer who for me does sounds like what I'd expect of Carter if I'd read the analyses and not heard the music, namely Lutoslawski.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #148 on: 15:43:53, 25-07-2007 »

And since I should probably say something about Carter, I'm really torn about him; I react viscerally against his brand of reductive, almost caricatured "musical characterizations," and his instrumental writing often strikes me as infuriatingly middle-of-the-road.  But damned if I don't like a lot of the pieces more than I think I should.
Elsewhere people have been talking about the question of 'understanding' a piece of contemporary music. With Carter's work, if anything the problem I find is it is too easy to 'understand'. Not that difficult to see why most of it is the way it is, at least in my experience. It lacks for me that much deeper complexity that comes from genuine infusion of unique human personality. At least some of the time. The musical 'characters' are caricatures, as you suggest, rather obvious archetypes rather than truly distinctive entities.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #149 on: 15:47:23, 25-07-2007 »

Ian mentioned Aldo Clementi, who for me is the prime example of the opposite attitude; Clementi's canonic structures may be audible only in a general sense (and at their beginnings), but surely the particular (diatonic) properties of the "seed material" thus becomes all-important? 
Maybe those structures aren't so audible as canonic structures, but the impression I get from Clementi, at least in the performances I like most, is of a definite emphasis upon process rather than so much the material upon which such processes operate (though of course that dichotomy is always a bit simplistic).

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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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