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Author Topic: Elliott Carter  (Read 5583 times)
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #15 on: 16:33:22, 22-06-2007 »


(wasn't that the piece Stravinsky considered a work of genius?)
[Y]es
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time_is_now
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« Reply #16 on: 16:40:33, 22-06-2007 »

I think the quote is

'a masterpiece, by an American composer'

He said something (nice) about the piano concerto too.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #17 on: 17:09:59, 22-06-2007 »

Particularly due to Carter's interest in the poetry/philosophy of Lucretius. Carter is often distinguished from his more academic peers due to the overt poetic dimension in his work (Lucretius, but also Hart Crane, St.John Perse, John Ashbery and the crazy Richard Crashaw poem about bubbles that carries the Symphonia).
Is this a legitimate and fair method of distinction? Are folks like Wuorinen or Babbitt less interested in poetry and philosophy? I suspect this is a red herring.
I've never really warmed much to Carter's vocal works (when all's said and done, they don't seem significantly different to those of Copland), but that might also be indirectly related to his choice of poetry as well. Makes me want to head back quickly to Feldman's vocal works (for both music and text)... Smiley
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #18 on: 17:13:57, 22-06-2007 »

when all's said and done, they don't seem significantly different to those of Copland
Your point being?

Quote
but that might also be indirectly related to his choice of poetry as well
I think I share a lot of Carter's tastes in poetry (true, there are things I like that he doesn't seem to, but there's little he's set, or shown an interest in, that I don't like).

I don't see why Carter should particularly be in competition with Copland or Feldman. Wink  Nancarrow, maybe ...
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ian Pace
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« Reply #19 on: 17:45:16, 22-06-2007 »

when all's said and done, they don't seem significantly different to those of Copland
Your point being?
Copland to me is OK, but a minor composer (comparable, say, to de Falla, or Poulenc, or John Ireland). Neither particularly deep, powerful, acute, challenging, visionary nor historically significant in the broader scheme of things.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #20 on: 17:51:09, 22-06-2007 »

But which Carter works are comparable with which Copland works-- this would be helpful to know, as:

1. Carters pieces strike me as very different from one another

2. Copland's vocal work is not well known to me.

I don't share your lack of enthusiasm for Copland, btw, but that's for another thread, I guess; and for folks who are more acquainted w/his work.
« Last Edit: 12:17:48, 23-06-2007 by Chafing Dish » Logged
trained-pianist
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« Reply #21 on: 17:55:01, 22-06-2007 »

Copland is a good composer. I used to hear a lot of his music in the USA, but mostly big works (ballet or orchestra).
Elliott Carter is less known composer I think.
They both are good composers.
« Last Edit: 17:57:39, 22-06-2007 by trained-pianist » Logged
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #22 on: 17:57:59, 22-06-2007 »

Copland is a good composer. I used to hear a lot of his music in the USA, but mostly big works (ballet or orchestra).
Eliot Carter is less known composer I think.
They both are good composers.
???
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #23 on: 20:54:01, 22-06-2007 »

For me, the Third Quartet is Carter's finest work, and remains one of my favorite works of the last 50 yrs or so.  The Double Concerto is a very close second.

I've found it very difficult to get excited about much of anything Carter's written in the last 10-15 years.  It all strikes me as being rather dry and strangely neo-classical, lacking all of the rhythmic and gestural vitality of the works from the 60's to late 80's.  Try as I might, I just can't quite get into the Boston Concerto, the ASKO Concerto, Soundings, Dialogues, etc., etc.  My sense is that this has quite a lot to do w/ the permutational approach to rhythm/pulse streams, w/ a vastly reduced and simplified number of available cross rhythms.  It ends up sounding rather mechanical to my ears (and thus much more similar to several of his early (though post-Copland-ish Americana) works.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #24 on: 22:37:14, 22-06-2007 »

Whereas

I don't much like any of the quartets or any of the vocal music, and I'm rather fond of the more recent works. Symphonia hasn't been mentioned. I think that might be the one I like best at the moment.
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #25 on: 22:44:39, 22-06-2007 »

Symphonia hasn't been mentioned. I think that might be the one I like best at the moment.
I did mention it,
Quote
the crazy Richard Crashaw poem about bubbles that carries the Symphonia
but didn't say whether I like it. I like it. I particularly think the scope and pacing of the piece are carefully worked out. This is some of his best brass writing as well, along with the Clarinet Concerto mentioned previously.

What are the saving graces of the 1980's? How about Triple Duo?

Aaron, nice to hear from you again. You of all people would love the Third Quartet. Sounds derogatory; isn't.  Kiss
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #26 on: 22:45:37, 22-06-2007 »

Whereas

I don't much like any of the quartets

Care to share why?
« Last Edit: 22:49:33, 22-06-2007 by aaron cassidy » Logged
aaron cassidy
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« Reply #27 on: 22:47:54, 22-06-2007 »

Aaron, nice to hear from you again. You of all people would love the Third Quartet. Sounds derogatory; isn't.  Kiss

Not in the slightest.  But sorry to be so predictable in my tastes ...

The Third Quartet is one of the few pieces that still sort of scares the crap out of me.  This is a good thing, indeed.
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #28 on: 23:41:27, 22-06-2007 »

The Third Quartet is one of the few pieces that still sort of scares the crap out of me.  This is a good thing, indeed.

I couldn't agree with you more here, Aaron. From the very start the polyphony is so knotty and involved that it still feels like a real listening workout - and he has the players at the very edges of what is possible on their instruments (IMHO). And it's really characterful, too. I heard it live once (in the same concert as all the other string quartets!) played by the Pacifica Quartet, and it was quite thrilling.

I also love the Concerto for Orchestra, Piano Concerto, Clarinet Concerto, Symphonia, and Boston Concerto, as well as many other pieces. The ones I can't get into are Penthode and What Next? although it has a few good moments.

I have to admit, along with Xenakis, Carter is my favourite composer of the last 50 or 60 years... Smiley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #29 on: 00:25:06, 23-06-2007 »

I don't much like any of the quartets

Care to share why?
That would be a bit difficult because I haven't heard any of them for a long time, and don't have any recordings to sneak off and listen to, but I think it has mostly to do with what I think of as their "typical 20th-century atonal string quartet texture", which I've never found attractive and is what also stands in the way of my really appreciating the quartets of Bartók, Schoenberg and Ferneyhough. I find my attention wandering. (I suppose I should give a few counterexamples of quartets I do appreciate: Xenakis (all of them), Cage (likewise), Feldman (both), Ligeti (2nd), Kagel (up to the 3rd; I found the 4th awful), Nono, Finnissy (the only one called "String Quartet"), Giorgio Netti. Probably a few more I can't bring immediately to mind. That's a bit offtopic though. For me Carter is one of those composers (like Birtwistle) whose large-scale works I much prefer to the others, although I've always liked Carter's Piano Sonata. Unlike in Stuart's case (welcome back Stuart, I know I owe you a CD but I'm still not quite finished with moving house, in the middle of everything else, and it will be on its way soon I hope) Carter has never been a particularly important composer for me, and I didn't really appreciate his work at all, apart from tha aforementioned Sonata, until one very memorable performance of Penthode I heard in Amsterdam a few years ago (ASKO/Knussen). For the first time this music made sense to me - I'd heard it in London (London Sinfonietta/someone) when it was still quite new and it sounded grimly arbitrary.
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