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Author Topic: Stravinsky ... Let's talk about Stravinsky  (Read 1590 times)
Colin Holter
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« Reply #45 on: 15:20:49, 02-08-2007 »

Do we not count Beethoven as a 19th century composer? Certainly most of the works of his that were most influential upon later composers were written after 1800. His shadow utterly dominates the whole century, even for those composers who tried to escape it.

I think it's hard to argue that Beethoven wasn't the most important composer of the 19th century.  However, the concept of "greatness" as we apply it to people like Beethoven is sort of obsolete in the 20th century, isn't it?  We can talk about influential composers, composers who changed the field of music irreversibly, etc., but how does one argue that Cage is greater than Schoenberg, Nono, etc.?
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #46 on: 15:27:17, 02-08-2007 »

Do we not count Beethoven as a 19th century composer? Certainly most of the works of his that were most influential upon later composers were written after 1800. His shadow utterly dominates the whole century, even for those composers who tried to escape it.

I think it's hard to argue that Beethoven wasn't the most important composer of the 19th century.  However, the concept of "greatness" as we apply it to people like Beethoven is sort of obsolete in the 20th century, isn't it?  We can talk about influential composers, composers who changed the field of music irreversibly, etc., but how does one argue that Cage is greater than Schoenberg, Nono, etc.?

Well, at the risk of further hijacking my own thread, I don't think it's difficult to argue that about Beethoven at all; with the Romantic cult of the artist-individual and the breakdown of stylistic norms, both of which were obviously only heightened in the twentieth century, it's hard for me to see how one can directly compare Beethoven to Wagner, most obviously, or Mahler, or even Liszt or Schumann.  I could countenance an argument that Beethoven was "greater" than Brahms in some relatively concrete sense, since they were plowing relatively common furrows - but I still find Brahms more interesting and sympathetic.

Anyway.  Stravinsky.  I think it's a little too simple to say that he "pulled back" from the Rite.  Even given what we know now in retrospect about Stravinsky's mercenary and careerist instincts, as a composer I am inclined to see whatever aesthetic shifts he underwent under the aegis of retroactive necessity.  Would he have written Pulcinella or the Symphony in C or the Octet, let alone the Symphonies of Wind Instruments, without the Rite?  Could he have?  Does the one not imply the others?  I think saying "no, it doesn't" is too simple, and that we should give the evolution of Stravinsky's creative instincts the benefit of the doubt, and instead look for ways in which the "neoclassical" works, and the serial ones as well, continued the spirit of the Rite rather than abandoning it.
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Biroc
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« Reply #47 on: 15:49:10, 02-08-2007 »



Quote
In a very similar way, everything we have seen in popular drama for the past sixty years echoes the second war in some way. One example among thousands is Dr. Who and the Daleks. The Dalek's moral standpoint is simply that of the SS all over again is it not? Or as another example, all those evil élite geniuses and their mysterious laboratories. . . .
We believe there may be a point of view which suggests that both the Daleks and the elite geniuses, as protrayed in popular drama, could equally be taken to draw upon stereotypes of evil communists poised to take over the world.

Well Ian, Dalek creator Terry Nation has stated directly that they were based on the Nazis. And Genesis of the Daleks specifically treats Davros as a Hitler figure (and indeed the "human" Kaleds that later become Daleks are dressed in a most "SS" way).

Sorry Evan - off topic AGAIN! But at least I really am listening to the Rite as I write ...  Grin
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #48 on: 16:02:58, 02-08-2007 »

Where could he go after Le Sacre? To all intents and purposes, isn't it it's own destination? Breaking one mould doesn't of itself create another.

In the years that followed it S himself had problems with what to do with works: Le Rossignol (1914) underwent a midlife change of direction, and Svadebka/Les Noces found itself mutating from a piece with a Sacre-sized orchestra (apart from single strings) though a halfway house with cembalom and player piano before settling down in the final four pianos and percussion battery version that we know today. All this was happening during and immediately after WW1 (when economic circumstances were very suddenly much harder and also the time when he had turned his back on his much-loved homeland).

 L'Histoire du Soldat (1918) is a direct result of the need to find a new medium for performance: something that can be done more economically and in many more locations than the big theatres of Monaco, London and Paris. There may be internal reasons for the change his outlook and style, but they're balanced by the effect of external pressures, too.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #49 on: 16:40:06, 02-08-2007 »

I think it's hard to argue that Beethoven wasn't the most important composer of the 19th century.
Though other composers have been so described, particularly Wagner. I don't like this "greatest composer" business at all, anyway.

I'd agree that Stravinsky's post-Rite music is conditioned by that work and in some ways grows directly from it, but I still detect the same kind of "loss of nerve" that leads from Elektra to Rosenkavalier.

Maybe that says more about you than it does about Stravinsky or Strauss.
You may have a point there, Veronika. What's this about you and Martle though?
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Colin Holter
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« Reply #50 on: 17:18:24, 02-08-2007 »

Quote
Well, at the risk of further hijacking my own thread, I don't think it's difficult to argue that about Beethoven at all; with the Romantic cult of the artist-individual and the breakdown of stylistic norms, both of which were obviously only heightened in the twentieth century, it's hard for me to see how one can directly compare Beethoven to Wagner, most obviously, or Mahler, or even Liszt or Schumann.

What I'm saying, though, is that such "Romantic cult(s) of the artist-individual" seem to be the true face of what we're discussing as "greatness"–and Beethoven has the biggest cult.  Although it seems fair to say that "the breakdown of stylistic norms" eroded this good-better-best concept, I don't agree that the Romantic mythologizing that surrounds figures like Beethoven, Schubert, Liszt, Wagner, etc. is the same phenomenon as, for instance, Boulez's claim that Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern were the "father, son, and holy spirit."  (I'm not 100% sure this is what Evan was arguing.)  In the 20th century, advocating Stravinsky's greatness over Schoenberg's or Bartok's has much less to do with the cult of personality than with privileging one "true path" of music over others.  Of course, this isn't unique to the last hundred years:  Spats between Artusi and Monteverdi over the Seconda Prattica and between Hanslick and the Wagnerians come immediately to mind.  However, as I said, these strike me as distinct from the comparisons of "personal greatness" characteristic of the 19th century.  In any case, I certainly don't think we do this now, and I don't know of a similar pedestal for Stravinsky (except maybe Craft's).
« Last Edit: 17:20:22, 02-08-2007 by Colin Holter » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #51 on: 17:24:48, 02-08-2007 »

In the 20th century, advocating Stravinsky's greatness over Schoenberg's or Bartok's has much less to do with the cult of personality than with privileging one "true path" of music over others. 
To a certain extent, I'm tempted to say that's a slight improvement.... Grin
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #52 on: 10:34:32, 05-08-2007 »

I think it's hard to argue that Beethoven wasn't the most important composer of the 19th century.
Though other composers have been so described, particularly Wagner. I don't like this "greatest composer" business at all, anyway.

A reluctance to tackle the question of the "greatest composer" is widespread among Members we find. It reminds us of Bertie Russell and his disreputable cronies; their method too, when a difficult metaphysical question was put to them, was to question the question rather than attempt an answer. Let us say that we are always very suspicious of those who say "the question is meaningless!"

Which gives us the idea for a new thread . . .
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #53 on: 11:30:27, 08-11-2008 »

Can I have recommendations for a kick-arse recording of the Rite please?
I've just realised that the only recording that I own has been filling in until I buy a new one for about 10 years.
Thank you!
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SH
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« Reply #54 on: 11:55:58, 08-11-2008 »

Not an expert Smiley, but Peter Eötvös with the Gothenberg Orchestra on Bmc kicks mine.

& it's coupled with Mavra, which is nice.
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martle
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« Reply #55 on: 12:08:34, 08-11-2008 »

Not an expert Smiley, but Peter Eötvös with the Gothenberg Orchestra on Bmc kicks mine.

& it's coupled with Mavra, which is nice.

Ooh, ooh...
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SH
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« Reply #56 on: 12:59:16, 08-11-2008 »

The Rite of Spring is with the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie. 

Mavra Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra. Maria Fontosh - soprano (Parasha), Ludmila Schemtschuk - mezzo-soprano (Mother), Lilli Paasikivi - mezzo-soprano (The Neighbour), Valerij Serkin - tenor (Hussaren).

Googling (motto: you surf, we spy) I see that Rob Cowan chose Eötvös for 'Building a Library'. I also see that David Hurwitz on Classics Today doesn't rate it. Ahem.

Perhaps I just like non arse-kicking Rite of Springs. I've also get Haitink with the BPO (picked up in an HMV Oxford Street Sale) and admire that, too. Mackerras is meant to be good.

http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2014049/Mexican_donkey_jailed_for_kicking_and_biting.html
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #57 on: 13:03:15, 08-11-2008 »

Can I have recommendations for a kick-arse recording of the Rite please?

Ančerl on Supraphon
Boulez 1963 on Adčs (wild and raspy and with a French bassoon)
Boulez 1992 on DG (relatively cool and dead-on-target - sniper approach)
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #58 on: 13:03:48, 08-11-2008 »

I also see that David Hurwitz on Classics Today doesn't rate it.
Almost a prerequisite for a fine recording in my book.  Roll Eyes
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SH
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« Reply #59 on: 13:08:33, 08-11-2008 »

I also see that David Hurwitz on Classics Today doesn't rate it.
Almost a prerequisite for a fine recording in my book.  Roll Eyes

Indeed Smiley

I'd forgotten Ančerl Shocked

Yes, a zillion times yes. One day I will put things in order & then I will know what's what and where. Although I suppose being reminded of the Ančerl Rite out of the blue is good, too.

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