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Ian Pace
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« Reply #60 on: 11:19:25, 14-09-2007 » |
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I think that, by describing her as having presented any kind of "ęsthetic argument" at all, it may be thought that you vest in her work an importance and vaildity that you yourself roundly, articulately and necessarily deny. Certainly deny it, but on the other hand her book and the associated articles have generated a lot of press attention and the like, and as such could be said to have had a certain influence. That's why I think they shouldn't be allowed to go unchallenged. These sorts of simplistic platitudes can be far too potent. But one shouldn't read from that a dismissal of the value of exploring issues of gender and sexuality in the construction of aesthetic priorities, by any means. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #61 on: 11:36:11, 14-09-2007 » |
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I think that, by describing her as having presented any kind of "ęsthetic argument" at all, it may be thought that you vest in her work an importance and vaildity that you yourself roundly, articulately and necessarily deny. Certainly deny it, but on the other hand her book and the associated articles have generated a lot of press attention and the like, and as such could be said to have had a certain influence. That's why I think they shouldn't be allowed to go unchallenged. These sorts of simplistic platitudes can be far too potent. I agree entirely and appluad you for challenging them. But one shouldn't read from that a dismissal of the value of exploring issues of gender and sexuality in the construction of aesthetic priorities, by any means.
I don't; what I do, however (apart from noting with withering horror the kinds of pleonastic absurdity into which such explorations can and are indeed wont to lead such people), is recognise that explorations should be presented AS explorations and not as already established incontrovertible fact. From genuine explorations one hopes to elicit discoveries and eventual factual conclusions, but I do feel that the work of writers such as the one to whom you draw our attention here can reveal a tendency to illustrate (though by no means all quite as egregiously as this one has) the all-too-prevalent risk that published accounts of explorations be presented as somehow synomous with universal and accepted truths; it is especially galling, I think, when (as here, in matters of sexuality in creative artists), such grossly simplistic generalisations are offered and attract credibility in academic circles and even in the wider market place at a time when any neuroscientist working on such genuine explorations will openly admit just how far we remain from being able to make any realistic and informative conclusions about such issues. That is not at all to deny the importance or the amount of inherent interest in those issues, still less to discourage genuine research into them by those qualified to carry it out methodically - merely to put them in their rightful time, place and perspective and, in so doing, distinguish what can be fantasy from as yet unproven fact. Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #62 on: 11:39:26, 14-09-2007 » |
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Can I put in a request to John W, that the appropriate posts be moved into a new 'Music, Gender and Sexuality' thread, or something like that? We're obviously getting some way from Ives, but these topics have resurfaced in various contexts.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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richard barrett
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« Reply #63 on: 11:52:26, 14-09-2007 » |
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Anywhere else it would be amazing to find that a discussion thread about the music of Ives should have turned into a "discussion" of gender politics. Not here though, where seemingly any kind of thread at all can serve as an occasion for the airing of somewhat obsessive "positions" on this subject which have already been aired ad nauseam in sundry other discussions.
Am I alone here in wanting to hear something about Ives and his music, a subject on which I'm no expert and on which I was looking forward to reading some interesting insights? - particularly (if I'm to specify something) on what people might think about these recent Andrew Litton recordings?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #64 on: 11:55:54, 14-09-2007 » |
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Anywhere else it would be amazing to find that a discussion thread about the music of Ives should have turned into a "discussion" of gender politics. Not in the US, at least, where these sorts of issues have been central to a lot of recent discussion of Ives. Not here though, where seemingly any kind of thread at all can serve as an occasion for the airing of somewhat obsessive "positions" on this subject which have already been aired ad nauseam in sundry other discussions. Well, there is a reason for asking that some posts might be moved to another thread, when they get away from Ives. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #65 on: 12:01:25, 14-09-2007 » |
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Am I alone here in wanting to hear something about Ives and his music, a subject on which I'm no expert and on which I was looking forward to reading some interesting insights? - particularly (if I'm to specify something) on what people might think about these recent Andrew Litton recordings?
No, you're not. Best, Alistair |
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Bryn
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« Reply #66 on: 15:38:45, 28-03-2008 » |
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Anyone here familiar with Henry Brant's "Concord Symphony", based on the Ives sonata?
I have just ordered a CD of it. Really don't know quite what to expect.
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autoharp
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« Reply #67 on: 16:45:25, 28-03-2008 » |
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My understanding is that it is simply an orchestration of the Concord Sonata. Strangely enough, I only realised last week that it was had been recorded - volume 7 of the Henry Brant collection, which I assume is what you've ordered, Bryn? Brant always was a big Ives fan - his ideas about spatial music started from The unanswered question and are very different from those of European composers: he's pretty critical of Gruppen for example. Very much underrated and the sole survivor of the so-called "ultra-modern" or "American pioneer" generation. Having said that, I've been disappointed by the couple of CDs I've picked up in recent times (Henry Brant collection volumes 3 + 8 ). But I do look forward to hearing your views on the Concord Symphony!
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« Last Edit: 17:32:22, 30-03-2008 by autoharp »
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richard barrett
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« Reply #68 on: 17:03:52, 28-03-2008 » |
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Which works of Brant are underrated, auto? I heard a few once when he was a featured composer at Huddersfield and then again later in Amsterdam and had the feeling of their being chucked together any old how, which has put me off investigating further, though I suppose CDs aren't really the best medium for such things.
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autoharp
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« Reply #69 on: 17:35:59, 28-03-2008 » |
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Off the top of my head, works I've enjoyed have included
- Angels and Devils for a load of flutes (1931)
- Signs and alarms and Galaxy 2 - both c.1954 - on the back of an old recording of Antheil's Ballet Mecanique cond. by Carlos Surinach
- The fourth milennium (spatial) recorded by the American brass quintet (alongside with the first available recordings of Ives From the steeples + mountains and Chromatimelodtune)
- Kingdom come - 2 orchestras + organ - an acceptably zany piece pitting poisoned circus orchestra against earnest legit symphony orchestra. (Most of his zany stuff - a lot of it early - I'm not keen on)
- Orbits - 80 trombones, organ and sopranino voice - certainly interesting if not cosmically wonderful
I did hear a recording of some of the Huddersfield stuff. The most impressive by far seemed to be Milennium 2 for walls of brass - well, it seemed impressive on cassette anyway. Instant Huddersfield was certainly "chucked together" as the title would suggest. I guess you heard both of those ? But there are also several pieces I've heard which haven't impressed . . .
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #71 on: 20:40:13, 28-03-2008 » |
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he's pretty critical of Gruppen for example.
why's that then?  |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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autoharp
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« Reply #72 on: 00:27:50, 29-03-2008 » |
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Essentially because he is of the opinion that spacially separated groups should be of quite different make-up instrumentally. Often in his own pieces they also play quite different types of music.
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autoharp
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« Reply #73 on: 11:43:47, 01-04-2008 » |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #74 on: 11:48:21, 01-04-2008 » |
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Thanks again Mr Harp, looking forward to those.
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