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richard barrett
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« Reply #15 on: 14:41:40, 10-04-2007 » |
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I thought that wouldn't go down very well.
I certainly wouldn't presume to be capable of "improving" them, though.
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Daniel
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« Reply #16 on: 15:18:26, 10-04-2007 » |
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Chopin...wrote nothing for orchestra other than his concertos and concertante works (and the orchestration in those, whilst better than it is sometimes given credit for, is hardly exceptional)
...I admitted that my enthusiasm for Chopin from day one had never really extended to his concerti If the orchestration is a big part of your problem with the concerti, may I suggest you try listening to the Krystian Zimerman recording on DG in which he conducts and plays. When I first heard it I had one of those epiphanous 'wow, I never heard that introduction before' moments. You can really hear the intense thought Zimerman has put into the colour and balance of the orchestra throughout. It is never going to be 'great' and perhaps hearing all the thought in the playing could be considered a bad thing, but it is a very fresh and revealing approach to something that often sounds perfunctory. There are some sound clips here, http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1057922/a/Chopin:+Piano+Concertos+no+1+&+2+%2F+Krystian+Zimerman,+et+al.htm |
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« Last Edit: 15:24:49, 10-04-2007 by Daniel »
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time_is_now
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« Reply #17 on: 15:27:16, 10-04-2007 » |
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When I first heard it I had one of those epiphanous 'wow, I never heard that introduction before' moments.
Diaphanic, is it?  |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #18 on: 15:30:03, 10-04-2007 » |
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One important point about Scryabine's opus is the paucity of vocal writing therein. We may enumerate the finale of the First Symphony, a couple of early operatic fragments, and . . . unexecuted plans.
We may well say more about this subject to-morrow but are content to-day (if we may speak in a manner athletic) with the having "set off the rolling of the balls".
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #19 on: 15:31:28, 10-04-2007 » |
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This is very interesting thread. I wanted to thank Sydnew Crew for his post. I don't know how to quote, or I would have done it. Scriabin (or Scryabin)'s philosophy we were told is very complex and not very interesting. I only knew that he was attracted to stars and in his music it is often a mysterius star that is attracting him.
So far noone mentioned sonata number 2. It is an early piece and can not compete with number 7. It is a good piece for a pianist with intermediate skills and is useful piece for that. It is not long (only two movements) and it is not too difficult musically. It is an opening stone to the other sonatas.
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« Last Edit: 15:33:19, 10-04-2007 by trained-pianist »
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autoharp
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« Reply #20 on: 16:40:59, 10-04-2007 » |
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One important point about Scryabine's opus is the paucity of vocal writing therein. We may enumerate the finale of the First Symphony, a couple of early operatic fragments, and . . . unexecuted plans.
We may well say more about this subject to-morrow but are content to-day (if we may speak in a manner athletic) with the having "set off the rolling of the balls".
Have a listen to Prometheus, Siddo. As it rolls towards its conclusion, a rather stirring chorus is heard. |
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #21 on: 17:02:21, 10-04-2007 » |
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[Hegel said that quantity, growing indefinitely, transcends into quality. Scryabine frequently quoted this dictum to vindicate his theory of "catastrophism." It was for him not only a theoretical postulate, but a manifestation of inner experience. He felt in his own being how this tremendous tension continued to increase until it suddenly brought forth a new state qualitatively different from the preceding. Projecting his inner experience outwardly, he speculated that the entire history of the world also obeyed this evolutionary process of gradual accumulation and growth, that, upon reaching a degree of saturation, must terminate in a world catastrophe, leading in turn to a new evolution, a new increase in tension, and a new crisis. Scryabine associated this philosophy of life with the specific structure of his major works, which to him represented a series of gradual expansions systematically and logically evolving in the direction of a final ecstasy. Indeed, all Scryabine's works beginning with the Third Piano Sonata are built according to a uniform succession of states: languor, longing, impetuous striving, dance, ecstasy, and transfiguration. This outline is basically simple; it is built on a series of upswings, with each successive wave rising higher and higher toward a final effort, liberation, and ecstasy.
I don't know much about Scriabin philosophy. His music is more interesting than his philosophy, but in order to understand the man one has to know something about his philosophy.
All this words: Languor, longing, striving are good in describing Scriabin's music. It is very useful if someone is attempting to play it.
Also about orchestration I never heard that he was not a good orchestrator. He was a pianist and this is his minus in terms of orchestrating colours I guess. He whote for piano and orchestra. I don't know about any music he wrote for other instruments.
I know that he wrote many Mazurkas and other short works for money because shorter pieces are easier to sell for amature pianists. One can say a lot in short time. Chopin did it well and some of his Preludes are few second long.
In this Scriabin follows his master.
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autoharp
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« Reply #22 on: 17:05:46, 10-04-2007 » |
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Many thanks for that, t-p ! Amature pianists ? Know the kind of pianists you're talking about !
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #23 on: 19:42:18, 10-04-2007 » |
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Yes, autoharp, Scriabin's publisher in Germany (Jorgansen or what ever) wanted short pieces and Scriabin wrote them. Big sonatas are harder to sell.
How tragically he died with infected mosquito bite which turned into blood poisoning.
It is amazing how Chopin's influence can be taken so far by Scriabin. He was not atonal composer, but he came very close to being one. He had some sort of system with chords and created new chords built by fourths. It was not 12 notes system, but it went very far for the end of IXXth century beginning of XXth.
I don't remember now why he decided to use fourths.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #24 on: 23:19:32, 10-04-2007 » |
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My Scriabin knowledge is not as deep (or wide) as it should be, but I am inclined to judge Sonata 10 as a concise but athletic (and even understated) work. I had never noticed the Daphnis/ Sonata No 9 similarity before, but it is rather striking, isn't it! Agree with t-p about No 2 - perhaps not a great work, but a way in for many pianists.
Poem of Ecstasy - I always hope I am going to enjoy it more than the last time I heard it, but - I never do...good for trumpeters, not so good for listeners.
I have to say though, that putting Scriabin and Szymanowski side by side is much to the latter's advantage - wider range (from Chopinesque early works to the hothouse middle period - Symphony No 3! - to the more ascetic last works including the incomparable Stabat Mater and that wonderful hybrid, the 4th Symphony); at his most Scriabinesque he makes a more extravagant use of the harmonic language but it is better organised.
I'll put more Chopin thoughts on the Chopin thread, but for the moment will heartily concur with the view here of Chopin as the great 19th century contrapuntist, state that my distaste for the concertos is almost entirely down to the interminable opening tuttis (will listen to the Zimmerman), offer the Krakowiak as my favourite concertante work (lovely recording by Stefan Askenase), sharpen my mind in preparation for a defence of the B minor sonata 1st mt, wonder why Nicholas Cook describes the Polonaise-Fantasy as a "problem" piece, and remind readers of Alan Walker's view that Liszt's homages to Chopin came only AFTER Chopin died in 1849 - most obviously in Funerailles, but also in the Berceuse and two Polonaises.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #25 on: 23:53:28, 10-04-2007 » |
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sharpen my mind in preparation for a defence of the B minor sonata 1st mt, Very interested in your thoughts. That movement has some wonderful material, just that formally I find it a bit weak. On the other hand, the other movements are incredible; the second manages to achieve a 'themeless' writing (building upon the last movement of the Second Sonata in this respect), building everything from a continuously mutating material in a way that looks forward to the 20th century, while the slow movement (which I take big issue with the way many play; especially the middle section where the inner counterpoint of the lines is generally obliterated) is one of the most beautiful (and operatic) things Chopin ever wrote. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #26 on: 00:02:58, 11-04-2007 » |
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sharpen my mind in preparation for a defence of the B minor sonata 1st mt, Very interested in your thoughts. That movement has some wonderful material, just that formally I find it a bit weak. On the other hand, the other movements are incredible; the second manages to achieve a 'themeless' writing (building upon the last movement of the Second Sonata in this respect), building everything from a continuously mutating material in a way that looks forward to the 20th century, while the slow movement (which I take big issue with the way many play; especially the middle section where the inner counterpoint of the lines is generally obliterated) is one of the most beautiful (and operatic) things Chopin ever wrote. All very true - most especially that last bit! Best, Alistair |
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autoharp
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« Reply #27 on: 09:27:24, 11-04-2007 » |
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How about favourite performances of the later piano music - say the 5th Sonata onwards ?
Richter figures pretty strongly in my list, also (on occasion) Sofronitsky, Ogdon and Ashkenazy.
It's probably a crass over-generalisation, but are the faster versions often more successful ?
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #28 on: 09:43:27, 11-04-2007 » |
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I too like Richter and Sofronitsky. Horowitz is also good in Scriabin. He met Scriabin as a young boy and Scriabin predicted good future for Horowitz.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #29 on: 09:56:38, 11-04-2007 » |
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My introduction to the tenth sonata was through Ashkenazy's recording - many years since I have heard it, but I remember it being fleet of foot and with typical Decca piano sound - bass-lite, transparent - which probably accounts for my thinking of it as understated.
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