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Author Topic: As composers get older: music and 'music' ...  (Read 662 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #15 on: 14:26:45, 29-08-2007 »

It's not uniformly the case, however.  Telemann remained interested in the latest developments throughout his life, and was cheerfully writing "rococo" pieces by the end of his long career.
That's true - and even Bach might be said to have been said to be refining rather than seeking fresh horizons. I suppose it could be argued, however, that the latter persuasion may be more likely to occur in composer of our time than in Bach's and Telemann's though, given the far greater plethora of styles and availability of musics of most eras and places that pertain today in a way and to an extent that Bach, Telemann and their generation could hardly have imagined possible.
Well, it could be argued that the incorporation explicit citations, generic references and so on, in particular ways, itself constituted one of the 'latest developments' in a post-1968 musical world (taking some time to take off, but definitely doing so), and in that sense composers who were doing so were engaged in a not-so-dissimilar process to that of Telemann in his later years? Ligeti's late work, for all its particular relationship to certain traditions, doesn't sound like anything that could have been composed earlier, at least not to my ears. The same is true of the use of tonal or other historical harmonies and gesture in Lachenmann or Ferneyhough (in very different ways), the continuing development of certain aspects of tradition in Dillon, and so on and so forth.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #16 on: 14:47:38, 29-08-2007 »

Ligeti's late work, for all its particular relationship to certain traditions, doesn't sound like anything that could have been composed earlier, at least not to my ears.
Well, I think the Hölderlin choruses and most of the Viola Sonata do, but I don't think anyone claimed that any of the music we're talking about sounds so close to its models that one could mistake it for them (or for something contemporary with them), did they? That's certainly not what I was claiming about Paul McCartney - or about James Dillon for that matter.

Incidentally, I think I might have muddied the waters slightly by bringing in James Dillon, but to answer your earlier question:
So how do you see Dillon's notion of 'classical music', and how do you see McCartney's?
I think they both think of it as 'something that grown-ups do'.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
ahinton
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« Reply #17 on: 14:57:52, 29-08-2007 »

It's not uniformly the case, however.  Telemann remained interested in the latest developments throughout his life, and was cheerfully writing "rococo" pieces by the end of his long career.
That's true - and even Bach might be said to have been said to be refining rather than seeking fresh horizons. I suppose it could be argued, however, that the latter persuasion may be more likely to occur in composer of our time than in Bach's and Telemann's though, given the far greater plethora of styles and availability of musics of most eras and places that pertain today in a way and to an extent that Bach, Telemann and their generation could hardly have imagined possible.
Well, it could be argued that the incorporation explicit citations, generic references and so on, in particular ways, itself constituted one of the 'latest developments' in a post-1968 musical world (taking some time to take off, but definitely doing so), and in that sense composers who were doing so were engaged in a not-so-dissimilar process to that of Telemann in his later years? Ligeti's late work, for all its particular relationship to certain traditions, doesn't sound like anything that could have been composed earlier, at least not to my ears. The same is true of the use of tonal or other historical harmonies and gesture in Lachenmann or Ferneyhough (in very different ways), the continuing development of certain aspects of tradition in Dillon, and so on and so forth.
Yes, indeed - whilst this notion of "re-engagement" with earlier traditions and persuasions may be seen by some as carrying with it that of "returning" thereto (whether as pure and genuine change of heart / priorities or as cop-out or as anything in between), this certainly does not have to be the case. To me, the central point seems to be that the more that one absorbs of musics past and present, the more the totality of that experience might influence one's creative priorities at any given time and that any such changes that come about as a result may do so either subconsciously and subtly or manifest themselves as something apparently not unakin to a volte-face; likewise, the "wisdom of age" factor may act similarly here, in that one's ability to deal with such absorptions after, say, 40 years of composition will inevitably be different to the ways in which one reacted to the melting-pot of persuasions that one encountered in one's earlier days. Does this make any sense?(!)...

Best,

Alistair
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