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Author Topic: One Voice Per Part (OVPP) in Bach  (Read 2351 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #105 on: 09:27:11, 16-01-2008 »

Well, yes Ian, that's a fair point - but surely it can work the other way around, too?  It can be very much in a group's (or a composer's Wink) interest to harp on about how other groups are all different to itself, and similar to each other, thereby implying that one's own group is distinctive.
Absolutely, yes; I doubt there are many musicians who don't exhibit some range of acculturated practices, whether or not they are conscious of the fact (is it better to be so or not? That's a question about which I'm truly in two minds).

Anyhow, to leave this thread back on OVPP, I'll give some further thoughts on your previous post in the 'Oh let me weep' thread.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #106 on: 09:37:57, 16-01-2008 »

Quote
"If there happen to be trumpets and timpani in the ensemble, one should hide them as much as possible and place them behind all the other instruments if one does not wish their rattling sounds to obscure harmony and melody as well as singers and instruments; in particular, one should always set them at a distance from the voices, as it is to these that they are the most detrimental."

What a sensible man Scheibe clearly was.  Would you let these men loose in the vicinity of impressionable minors?

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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ian Pace
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« Reply #107 on: 09:50:02, 16-01-2008 »

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« Last Edit: 16:23:28, 17-01-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Baz
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« Reply #108 on: 09:52:43, 16-01-2008 »

Ollie,

Re your message #103, two points:

a) I am not convinced that is the hand of JSB, though the following (which shows the join to the Qui tollis) certainly is:



b) the join is made from the duet section Domine deus for Sop. 1 and Tenor. But I have already challenged (earlier in this thread) the blind assumption that these "aria"-style movements are necessarily for solo voices! I really think that needs to be established before arguments about the composition of the Chorus are entertained.

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #109 on: 10:42:09, 16-01-2008 »

Perhaps it is our native dimness but we feel that Johann Sebastian Bach's specifications of his requirements in his own words have been insufficiently or indeed not at all heeded by Members here discussing.

When in 1730 the Leipsic town council condemned the shortcomings of the choirs and declared that the bad state of affairs was entirely Bach's fault, Bach sent them a statement of what should be available for use in the church music and what was in actuality. The following presents the substance of his remarks:

A cantata choir should have four soloists and eight choralists. This gives the chorus two singers for each part. There are, however, exceptional conditions where the soloists ought to number five, six, seven and even eight. These conditions obtain when the soloists sing per choros. (Bach's Latin expression is ambiguous, and English writers on Bach seem to have given it up as untranslatable: it may mean 'through the chorus,' as when the soloists and the chorus sing together, but in two individual bodies, each with its own contrapuntal parts. A grand combination like this would be, in effect, a double choir; and it can be understood that in such conditions the soloists should equal the choristers in number.) Thus the number of singers in a cantata choir ought to be sixteen.

Actually, however, sixteen is not enough. Choristers are often unable to perform, because of illness--especially at this time of the year, says Bach, the time being the hot, dry summer. Therefore, to be on the safe side, there should be three singers for each choral part, making a chorus of twelve.

This consideration applies also to a motet choir (for example the second choir of the Thomas School boys, which on ordinary Sundays has to sing only a cappella part-music). With a choir of twelve, there is a fair certainty that the motet will be sung with at least two voices to a part.

Motets are sung in the churches of St. Thomas, St. Nicholas and the 'New.' Consequently for these three churches thirty-six choralists are wanted, and four (or more up to eight) soloists--that is, in all forty (or forty-four). Some boys are wanted, furthermore, for St. Peter's.

The total coetus, or assembly, of foundation scholars is fifty-five. If each member was a serviceable vocalist, conditions would be good. But in the nature of things this cannot be so. Some are beginners, others have their voices broken, others are musically incapable. As matters are at present in the school, seventeen scholars are serviceable, twenty are in process of training and are not yet serviceable, and seventeen are useless. Thus there are seventeen boys available for a minimum requirement of forty. But not even the seventeen are in reality available for vocal work. Some of them have to function as instrumentalists in the performance of cantatas.

A cantata requires in the lowest computation 2 first violins, 2 second violins, 2 first violas, 2 second violas, 2 cellos and a double bass: 11 string players in all. In the wind department it requires 2 oboes, 1 bassoon, 3 trumpets: 6 performers in all. A drummer being also needed, the grand total is 18. It is, however, better to have three players for each of the violin parts. Moreover, a third oboe and a second bassoon are sometimes wanted. Finally, flutes are frequently used. Thus the band should number twenty at the least, to balance the chorus of twelve (or sixteen), and it should number more if full satisfaction and complete equipment is desired.

The town council provides officially seven players only--2 violins, 2 trumpets, 2 oboes and 1 bassoon. Lacking are violas, cellos, double bass, drums, flutes, third trumpet and third oboe; and the violin parts are restricted to a single player for each. The seven instrumentalists are the employees of the town council. They form the town band. Several are old men, who should be retired. The others are not 'in good practice'; that is, they have not been able to keep up their technique.

Here Bach makes some general remarks: German performers of instrumental music are expected to play without preparation, and at first sight, any music, whether Italian, French, German or Polish. They are expected to play it as if they were the native virtuoso performers who have studied it well beforehand, and, indeed, know it almost by heart. These virtuosi, moreover, are paid high salaries, and their diligence and care are therefore well rewarded. Not being filled with concern for their livelihood, they can cultivate their art and become agreeable performers. It is so with the musicians employed at the royal court at Dresden. Our German players are left to take care of themselves; they have to work for their bread and have therefore little leisure to develop their technique, still less to become virtuosi. They are filled constantly with anxiety.

Bach returns to his particular theme. In Kuhnau's time a few university students who played instruments used to help in the cantata performances, taking second violin, viola, cello and double bass. They did this willingly, because it gave them pleasure and because certain little sums of money were paid them for their services. That payment has been discontinued. The students as a result have gradually withdrawn, for no one will work altogether for nothing. The instrumental places vacated by the students have to be filled with scholars from the school. The boys have to be taught their instruments. But since these boys, naturally among the more gifted musically, are turned into instrumentalists, they are lost to the chorus, thus with serious addition to the vocal problem.

In the case of the festivals the position is worse. Cantatas have then to be performed at St. Thomas's and St. Nicholas's at the same time. The boys who are instrumentalists on ordinary Sundays have to become singers again; and the instrumental performers are in consequence still more deficient. Kuhnau and his predecessor enjoyed an advantage in their cantorship that no longer exists. In their time there was a certain member of the council who out of his own pocket found fees for university students who could come in at festival times and sing alto, tenor and bass. This gentleman also paid for additional instrumentalists, in particular for second violins.

Coincident with all this is a radical change in the public taste for music in churches. The kind of music wanted now is that for which competent performers are absolutely essential. They must be instructed in the new and special technique it requires, and only such persons should be selected and appointed as can benefit by the instruction and so please the congregation; to say nothing of pleasing the composer by a good rendering of his work.

Thus Bach, in one of the most informative and authoritative documents that survive from his time. It will be noted that only once, and that in the last abstracted phrase, does Bach let it be seen that he is himself directly affected by conditions. He is, without doubt, making a case. He presents every possible point. The picture is the blackest that could be drawn. But when all that is allowed for, one is still left wondering how cantatas could possibly be performed, and what kind of performance they could possibly have had.

The council received Bach's statement, filed it (because it was sent to them officially) and ignored it.

Fifteen years later--when Bach had been in office twenty-two years, had composed for the churches about 270 cantatas and had directed cantata performances to a number somewhere between 1,000 and 1,500--his first or 'cantata' choir was constructed as follows: 5 sopranos, 2 altos, 3 tenors and 7 basses. Bach's ideal was three voices to a part. Here his basses outnumber his altos by more than three to one, and his sopranos are nearly twice as strong as his tenors. The bad balance can be due to one condition only, namely, that he had these "serviceable" singers in the school and no others, and had to put them into the choir. Thus it is clear that to the end his available forces were always wrong, and that he never heard his music in the "good rendering that is pleasing to the composer."
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #110 on: 12:47:22, 16-01-2008 »

The cantata is only scored for 1 oboe, strings and continuo (organ, bassoon and bass strings), so why should this piece need the assistance of ripienists?

I think you would probably have to ask Bach that question - I do believe a set of ripieno parts has survived for the work although I'll have to check that. (Also whether it's in the cantata's Weimar, Cöthen or Leipzig versions that there are ripieno parts... at the moment I'm looking at a site which mentions trombones in the scoring...  Shocked) Of course an extra quartet doesn't actually supply all that much more volume acoustically speaking.

Edit: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV21.htm

I'm seeing 4 trombones in the 9th movement and 3 trumpets and timps in the 11th.


It's not ultimately relevant whether the parts for the Kyrie and Gloria are in Bach's handwriting - the important thing is that they were used for performance (and while he didn't perform the piece as a whole I'm pretty sure he did perform those movements). In the context of music from that time and place, there's no 'assumption' involved in having solo voices perform even the choruses, never mind the solo music - as I understand it, it was standard German Baroque practice from Schütz to Telemann. The 'assumption' comes in when we perform the music chorally, or when we conclude from Bach's wishes for his ideal available choral roster that he was talking about the actual size of the performing choir.

Indeed if he was even mentioning them as an ideal that should alert us to the possibility that he perhaps didn't actually have them...  Wink

It's important also to bear in mind that Bach's choirs had many duties and singing the choruses of his cantatas was only one of them. Their duties also included singing much simpler motets.

I have another image that will ask some searching questions of those who have taken on the idea of solo-voiced choruses as a kind of religion.

Religion is a funny word to have used, no? If there were as much concrete evidence for the existence of a deity as there is for the one-voice-per-part choir you could sign me up quick smart!  Cheesy
« Last Edit: 12:54:23, 16-01-2008 by oliver sudden » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #111 on: 13:12:46, 16-01-2008 »

Edit: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV21.htm

I'm seeing 4 trombones in the 9th movement and 3 trumpets and timps in the 11th.

Might very well have been the same players, though?  I know the idea of playing both trombone & trumpet seems anathema to modern players, but the wind players of the time wouldn't have thought so.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Baz
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« Reply #112 on: 14:51:51, 16-01-2008 »

...It's not ultimately relevant whether the parts for the Kyrie and Gloria are in Bach's handwriting - the important thing is that they were used for performance (and while he didn't perform the piece as a whole I'm pretty sure he did perform those movements)...

He certainly must have performed those two movements since they formed the Lutheran Mass setting he composed dating from 1733 (to which the remaining movements were later added). I wonder whether there is any more evidence that the page you displayed was ever used in a performance than there is that it is in Bach's own hand? Looking at it, it strikes me that it is more likely to have been only a rough draft to be used subsequently by a copyist to produce fair copies. I say this not merely because of its rather crude presentation, but also because there seems no evidence of any performing annotations (not that these would have necessarily occurred on every single page of course!).

BTW I take your other point about my word 'religion', which was a little bit tongue-in-cheek anyway. But, and I speak only personally here, Bach's own personal commitment to his religious ideals speaks much more eloquently to me than does any supposedly tangible evidence he may or may not have left to support the OVPP idea.

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #113 on: 14:55:20, 16-01-2008 »

The cantata is only scored for 1 oboe, strings and continuo (organ, bassoon and bass strings), so why should this piece need the assistance of ripienists?

I think you would probably have to ask Bach that question - I do believe a set of ripieno parts has survived for the work although I'll have to check that. (Also whether it's in the cantata's Weimar, Cöthen or Leipzig versions that there are ripieno parts... at the moment I'm looking at a site which mentions trombones in the scoring...  Shocked) Of course an extra quartet doesn't actually supply all that much more volume acoustically speaking.

Edit: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV21.htm

I'm seeing 4 trombones in the 9th movement and 3 trumpets and timps in the 11th.



Yes - those occur in Part 2 - I was only speaking of Part 1 (and made this extremely unclear - sorry). However, the pattern of alternating "solo" and "tutti" writing is continued also into Part 2 (and not only in conjunction with the Trumpets and Timps).

Baz
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #114 on: 15:17:45, 16-01-2008 »

I wonder whether there is any more evidence that the page you displayed was ever used in a performance than there is that it is in Bach's own hand? Looking at it, it strikes me that it is more likely to have been only a rough draft to be used subsequently by a copyist to produce fair copies.

Further copies would have been for the ripienists so there would have been no point copying out the solo material (a VERY time-consuming task) unless there were in fact no soloists and the ripienists sang everything - which I would be very reluctant to believe.

I've seen a few original parts from that period and performance annotations are extremely sparse - they simply didn't have the same relationship with stationery we do. I'm not surprised there would be none on the part. As far as I know it's from Bach's archive but I'll check.

For the same reason, they didn't simply make copies for the fun of it. It's generally accepted that sets of parts from the period are actually complete; usually the necessary extra string parts are there, for example. In any case if it were a rough draft for further copies, at least some of the further copies would have been retained - or at the very least, it's the assumption that there must have been further copies which doesn't pass the Occam's razor test.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #115 on: 16:16:50, 16-01-2008 »

It's generally accepted that sets of parts from the period are actually complete

But see the Koopman article I linked to earlier. (See, I said I wasn't prejudiced against him!)
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #116 on: 17:11:21, 16-01-2008 »

Sorry, hastiness in a rehearsal break...

I meant that the complete sets are complete, as in: sets of ripieno parts weren't simply thrown away. In any case the fact that sets have come down to us incomplete is in fact no evidence, surely? It can hardly entitle us to assume that ripieno sets automatically existed.

Pretty well everything in the Koopman article Richard linked to is dealt with in Parrott. (I don't have time just now to go through the details - I will later if anyone can still be bothered.) Where Koopman refers to period eyewitness accounts of a choral performance with orchestra having 30-40 musicians he doesn't mention how many singers there are supposed to have been; there's certainly at least one such account in Parrott where although the orchestra numbers up to 40 the singers still number 4. I've already mentioned Mattheson's critique of Beer's 8-part ensemble with 4 singers and 4 instruments. Koopman of course also mentions it but fails to mention that Mattheson's complaints seem to have been about its instrumental component and that he would have left the voices at 4.

It's certainly not difficult to find pictures from the period of singers sharing parts. Parrott obviously deals with that at length. The pictures are rarely (if ever) of concerted music. It's one thing to read those Florilegium Portense motets from a shared score. It's very much another thing to read an intricate Bach chorus in the same way. Especially if (as is the case in the B minor mass and elsewhere) there's actually no indication in the parts as to when the ripienists are supposed to join in.

In any case I don't think even Koopman provides anything to refute the notion that the singers who sang the arias also sang the choruses, whether or not they were reinforced by others.

...and for what it's worth: a friend of mine is a singer who lives in Zürich and often hops off to Basel to sing in a series of Bach cantata performances they put on at the Predigerkirche. She tells me she doesn't know anything about researches into Bach's German pronounciation but she knows someone who would know if there had been any and will enquire. Richard, you might like to watch this space.

...and to tidy up a loose end: Ich hatte viel Bekümmernis is treated in some detail by Parrott from his p.61. The ripienists were added for a Leipzig performance in 1723 to a cantata originally written for Weimar and first performed there around 1713. It's worth looking at pages 76-77, showing the gradual entry of the ripienists in the 11th movement with the re-entry of a fugue subject - in the pieces where he did use ripienists Bach often did something more creative with them than just having them double the main voices all the way through.
« Last Edit: 22:07:08, 16-01-2008 by oliver sudden » Logged
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« Reply #117 on: 22:20:08, 16-01-2008 »

Member Grew, thank you for an extremely interesting post

NB
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #118 on: 22:38:03, 16-01-2008 »

Perhaps it is our native dimness but we feel that Johann Sebastian Bach's specifications of his requirements in his own words have been insufficiently or indeed not at all heeded by Members here discussing.

Mr Grew here quotes largely from Bach's Kurtzer, iedoch höchstnöthiger Entwurff einer wohlbestallten Kirchen Music; nebst einigem unvorgreiflichen Bedencken von dem Verfall derselben. Alas it is a little tricky to tell from Mr Grew's post which are Bach's 'own words' and which Mr Grew's own words...

Thus the band should number twenty at the least, to balance the chorus of twelve (or sixteen), and it should number more if full satisfaction and complete equipment is desired.

Those words in particular are not Bach's, let it be said at once.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #119 on: 23:20:20, 16-01-2008 »

Bach's German pronounciation

Goodness gracious me, how did that get through?  Shocked No one will ever take me seriously again.

tinners pointed it out in a PM but I couldn't possibly change it. That would be craven dishonesty.
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