Chafing Dish
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« Reply #15 on: 21:28:26, 04-07-2007 » |
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Yes, the string quartets are mere opus numbers, but everything else has to use Hoboken, New Jersey, numbers.Arf! Speaking of new anything, are folks familiar with Haydn's baryton works, written for his patron Esterhazy to play? The baryton octets are absolutely incredible, as is the instrument itself: baryton, 2 horns, string quartet, and violone Of course, there are numerous baryton trios, too, but the octets represent somewhat more serious efforts on the part of the composer. Recorded on KOCH 3=1250-2 H1 and H2 by the Haydn-Sinfonietta Vienna, under the probably unnecessary direction of Manfred Huss.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #16 on: 21:31:07, 04-07-2007 » |
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Oh yes, those bloody numberings...*grumble*....
But having got to the right sonata at last: OMG. Yes. There are places Haydn goes that no one else does. Before or since. (Actually before turning to Schornsheim I subjected the Adagio to a test that few pieces survive. I bashed through it myself. If a piece can handle that it can handle anything.)
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tonybob
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« Reply #17 on: 21:32:56, 04-07-2007 » |
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under the probably unnecessary direction of Manfred Huss.
i first heard the baryton trios on radio3 years ago, when i was unemployed and haydn was composer of the week. they are lovely, free flowing things. don't know the octets.
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sososo s & i.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #18 on: 21:41:43, 04-07-2007 » |
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the octets represent somewhat more serious efforts on the part of the composer. Recorded on KOCH 3=1250-2 H1 and H2 by the Haydn-Sinfonietta Vienna, under the probably unnecessary direction of Manfred Huss.
And indeed by the Ricercar Consort on a double CD that I have. I haven't listened to it for a while but I remember some absolutely hair-raising combinations of first horn reaching for the heights and second horn burbling in the depths, a little joke Haydn seems to have been quite fond of.
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #19 on: 21:49:12, 04-07-2007 » |
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« Last Edit: 21:51:18, 04-07-2007 by Chafing Dish »
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tonybob
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« Reply #20 on: 21:50:50, 04-07-2007 » |
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from piano sonata no.1 you hear (and see!) the jokes. i love mozart, but you don't get that in mozart, do you?
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sososo s & i.
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martle
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« Reply #21 on: 21:56:21, 04-07-2007 » |
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Piano Sonatas.
Haydn or Mozart? Popular opinion has it that Haydn's are far better (i.e. more inventive, innovative, daring, expressive, witty, elegant, consummate). I go with popular opinion myself. Mozart just seemed to have a blank in this genre (with hon exceptions of course), compared with his achievements elsewhere.
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Green. Always green.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #22 on: 07:21:22, 05-07-2007 » |
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I too go with popular opinion about Mozart and Haydn piano sonatas. Mozart fantasia (s) are good. Does anybody like them?
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #23 on: 22:11:11, 03-10-2007 » |
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All sorts of people who I respect insist that Haydn's great, but I just can't get excited. I'll give a quick listen to this Kuijken one online and see if that changes anything.
Perhaps the "quick listen" is exactly the problem. Press the play button rather than the fast forward? For Haydn I recommend the Paris symphonies rather than the London, since they're a little more "lean" and the cleverness of them is much more in the foreground. I'd start with the C Major one called the Bear and the g minor one called the Chicken the Hen. After that, the String Quartets op. 33, especially the G major one with the nickname How do you do?Previously mentioned on this thread is a recording by the Ricercar Consort as well as one by the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien are the baryton octets. Also a great listen.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #24 on: 22:19:09, 03-10-2007 » |
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I've been puzzling away at this one. I don't know if I have any idea how I would explain Haydn to someone who didn't 'get' him. Perhaps either you're into the exquisite unfolding of forms and the play of familiarity and surprise or you're not? But no, a quick listen isn't going to do it. You have to give him time to build up your expectations to appreciate how he plays with them, I think; sometimes it's crassly, sometimes it's as subtly as any composer I know. Now spinning here: slow movement of the 93rd symphony. Completely four-square for the first minute or so but so utterly exquisite it's put tears in my eyes. And then a huge Minore tutti just before the one-minute mark; and then back to the Largo cantabile as though nothing had happened. And then that oboe solo just climbing up the scale, and then... no, sorry, I'm just going to have to keep listening...
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« Last Edit: 22:24:33, 03-10-2007 by oliver sudden »
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #25 on: 23:00:59, 03-10-2007 » |
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I think that despite the acclimation process OS suggests, there's usually a moment of epiphany for would-be Haydn fans, just as one finds for would-be beer drinkers. It's a matter of time and courage, and the naysayers among you will also have such a moment I'm sure.
When was your Haydn moment? (If you remember) Mine was the slow movement from Symphony 82, a set of variations alternating F major and f minor, but avoiding the usual order of harmonies -- with a triumphant coda that puts them all in the right places.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #26 on: 02:06:06, 04-10-2007 » |
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I don't know if I have any idea how I would explain Haydn to someone who didn't 'get' him. Perhaps either you're into the exquisite unfolding of forms and the play of familiarity and surprise or you're not? But does this problem arise often? In various threads here people like me have come forward sheepishly and put their hands up to finding difficulty appreciating certain mainstream composers (for example, quite a few had problems with Brahms, myself included). Does Haydn cause people similar problems? I find there's almost always 2-3 Haydn disks amongst those on top of the cd-player in the "current listening" pile I am particularly enjoying this at the moment (and it's around a fiver on Amazon, too):
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #27 on: 06:58:02, 04-10-2007 » |
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I don't know if I have any idea how I would explain Haydn to someone who didn't 'get' him. Perhaps either you're into the exquisite unfolding of forms and the play of familiarity and surprise or you're not? But does this problem arise often? In various threads here people like me have come forward sheepishly and put their hands up to finding difficulty appreciating certain mainstream composers (for example, quite a few had problems with Brahms, myself included). Does Haydn cause people similar problems? Apparently so - this came from Even and Aaron's Haydn thoughts over on Now Spinning. I didn't have an epiphany in the Dish manner. Unless you count 'the first time I heard some'. ('Surprise' symphony conducted by Eugen Jochum on DG, I think.)
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George Garnett
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« Reply #28 on: 09:44:07, 04-10-2007 » |
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I've been puzzling away at this one. I don't know if I have any idea how I would explain Haydn to someone who didn't 'get' him. I wouldn't claim that I 'get' Haydn because I am always horribly conscious that there is far, far more there than I ever hear or am capable of appreciating but he is so central and endlessly rewarding as far as I am concerned that I was genuinely brought up short by the idea that people, whose views I respect greatly and who know infinitely more about music than I do, don't necessarily share that view. I can happily take it in my stride that people don't like other heroes like Berlioz or Bruckner or Britten or even Mozart - but Haydn! and the ground under my feet doesn't feel quite so solid any more. Gosh! No moment of epiphany, though I do remember my heart pounding with excitement on hearing an earlyish symphony (thirtysomethingorother) conducted by Antal Dorati being broadcast from the Edinburgh Festival when I was also earlyish (ten or eleven). I just couldn't believe that the world had such things in it. And the quartets, above all, have been true, constant and faithful companions all my life. Sorry, generalised gushing doesn't help and is far more likely to be offputting I'd just suggest almost any of the quartets from Op 55 onwards, say, and if that doesn't do it, well, it's a fair cop, I've been badly mistaken all these years. Quartet Op 76 No 6 now spinning (Quatuor Mosaiques)
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« Last Edit: 09:57:59, 04-10-2007 by George Garnett »
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richard barrett
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« Reply #29 on: 10:06:28, 04-10-2007 » |
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('Surprise' symphony conducted by Eugen Jochum on DG, I think.)
That would be the same recording in my case! What I was going to say last night but didn't get around to before sliding peacefully into the land of nightmares was that, while in Mozart's case, the works which have entered the "canon" seem in my experience by and large to be the most interesting ones, and obscure pieces by Mozart tend more often than not to make a pleasant but unremarkable Mozart-type sound for while, I don't find this to be the case with Haydn: his best-known symphonies, for example (ie. nos. 93-104) aren't to my ears the most interesting and affecting ones (three of my favourites, for example, are nos. 15, 26 and 45), and, as CD says, some almost unknown things like the baryton octets can be quite revelatory. The same is true of his choral and chamber music I think. And my most recent and even perhaps most illuminating Haydn discovery was the piano sonatas!!!, first in Ronald Brautigam's fortepiano versions and then on various instruments by Christine Schornsheim (which as any fule kno is a major bargain). These I find to be among the most underrated works in history. I'd go so far as to say that they're in a way the distilled essence of Haydn, and therefore perhaps a good place to go if one is worried about not "getting" it.
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