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Author Topic: Mahler - Let's talk Mahler  (Read 13875 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #330 on: 11:07:37, 27-09-2007 »

in that case I have to reverse my previous comment and say that Gielen is the only conductor I've heard who has the clarinettist actually play what's written.
Rattle also gets a quite ungodly shriek from his clarinettists at that point. Smiley

On the subject of historical wind playing these interviews have some interesting material:
http://www.norapost.com/goosens.html
http://www.norapost.com/gillet.html
Very interesting, yes, and indeed supportive of the Norrington point of view with regard to vibrato if that's what one is looking for. What I was meaning to say about Norrington's tempi (bearing in mind that his Fourth is the only one I've heard so far) was that my problem with them is that they seem chosen to privilege an "expressivity of the moment" over and above the cumulative expressive character one achieves by taking more care of the interrelationships between tempi and structural elements; in other words the music ends up seeming patchwork-like (in my opinion Boulez goes too far in the other direction and his tempi are too subtly graded). However, as you say, the RN approach can give rise to startlingly poetic moments.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #331 on: 11:17:58, 27-09-2007 »

On the subject of clarinet sound in Mahler, I think clarinets in C (and D) should be used whenever he specifies them, but I doubt they are very often as some of the changes are rather quick.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #332 on: 11:23:02, 27-09-2007 »

These are all my personal opinions and as such are probably not those of the majority??

Who knows?

However, taking your points one by one:
(1) I find this a little strange - RN's interpretations are surely nothing if not logical, in so far as I imagine he could quote you some chapter and verse or other on absolutely every interpretative decision he makes - although you might not agree with them, or indeed accept his reasons for cherry-picking the "evidence" in the way he does, but he has certainly looked at the situation and made logical inferences from it.
(2) "Poor" in terms of orchestral balance might just, once again, mean "unorthodox", might it not? Clearly he has instructed the orchestra in terms of dynamics and likes the sound that he hears, otherwise he'd do it some other way.
(3) & (4) You're right, intonation and ensemble can be rough in RN's performances, though the same could be said for Furtwängler's, which WF aficionados dismiss as irrelevant to the heart of what he's doing. I tend not to agree with them but I wouldn't call Furtwängler incompetent.
(5) As I say, I personally don't agree with his tempi either, but I find it a bit odd that you seem to be judging a musical interpretation according to whether you "agree" with it or not! Aren't you also interested in interpretations which for one reason or another cause you to think about the music in a different way, from a different angle so to speak? That's what interests me about RN: I find his view of Mahler causing me to question what I take for granted in the music, perhaps especially when it rubs me up the wrong way.

Quite so, Tony. The clarinet in C doesn't sound quite like anything else.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #333 on: 11:31:02, 27-09-2007 »

The problem with extremely literal interpretations of the historical evidence, as Norrington and some others put into practice, is the fact that it's unlikely that anyone in the past was so utterly consistent (Robert Philip's study of early recordings demonstrates some consistent stylistic principles, but plenty of examples of performers 'breaking the rules'). But maybe that's a necessary stage in the development of performance styles - until the 'style' (or rather, an idealised view thereof) has been presented fastidiously, then it's very difficult to absorb it to such an extent that one can start to 'break the rules' meaningfully?

That said, it's hard not to escape the conclusion that some practitioners appeal to dogmatic historical evidence as a retreat from individual decisions for which they can present no other authority than their own will.

Ian (a strong advocate of the values of HIP at its best, by the way)
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #334 on: 11:32:59, 27-09-2007 »

Quite so, Tony. The clarinet in C doesn't sound quite like anything else.

There is nonetheless an interesting comment from Mahler in the 5th symphony at the entrance of the C clarinet in the first movement (at least in the Eulenburg score): "die ganze Stelle wird von der D-Klarinette ausgeführt". It's doubly interesting for me since it's phrased in a way ('the whole passage will be played on the D clarinet') which could mean a request to do so or just an acknowledgement that that would happen anyway! It's also interesting in that he specifies its replacement not by a lower clarinet (as one might normally do with a C part, playing it on the Bb) but by a higher one.

It's also rather unhelpful since at least in my experience D clarinets are even rarer than C clarinets.  Undecided
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richard barrett
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« Reply #335 on: 11:37:18, 27-09-2007 »

It's also interesting in that he specifies its replacement not by a lower clarinet (as one might normally do with a C part, playing it on the Bb) but by a higher one.

But quite logical of course. Maybe D clarinets were commoner then and there than they are now...?

At least he didn't ask for a clarinet in B or C#! (though I believe Kondrashin used those sometimes  Cool )
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #336 on: 11:55:04, 27-09-2007 »

Mozart writes for clarinet in B natural in Così fan tutte as any fule kno. Wink But in his day it wasn't normal to change the entire clarinet, just the two middle joints. I did bid on an ebay set of four German instruments not so long ago which included an instrument apparently in Db...

A pair with D and Eb was indeed so unusual back then. Indeed a colleague of mine has such a pair from Leblanc. He also used to have a pair of full-Boehms in Bb and A.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #337 on: 12:03:29, 27-09-2007 »

Mozart writes for clarinet in B natural in Così fan tutte as any fule kno. Wink But in his day it wasn't normal to change the entire clarinet, just the two middle joints. I did bid on an ebay set of four German instruments not so long ago which included an instrument apparently in Db...

A pair with D and Eb was indeed so unusual back then. Indeed a colleague of mine has such a pair from Leblanc. He also used to have a pair of full-Boehms in Bb and A.
I presume you mean not so unusual. (This fule kno very little about the instrumentational details of Mozart's operas.)
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #338 on: 12:05:20, 27-09-2007 »

Oops. I had indeed typed not so unusual but inadvertently backed my indeed over it.  Undecided

I blame Yvonne Loriod and her not-yet-husband in equal measure.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #339 on: 12:38:11, 27-09-2007 »

"die ganze Stelle wird von der D-Klarinette ausgeführt" ... ('the whole passage will be played on the D clarinet')
I don't presume to argue with an adopted Kölner, but I don't see a future tense in the German you quote, just a passive voice.

Do please feel free to correct me.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Lord Byron
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« Reply #340 on: 12:51:34, 27-09-2007 »

I have this on order

http://www.mahlersheavenlyretreats.com/index.html


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go for a walk with the ramblers http://www.ramblers.org.uk/
Ian Pace
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« Reply #341 on: 13:09:25, 27-09-2007 »

"die ganze Stelle wird von der D-Klarinette ausgeführt" ... ('the whole passage will be played on the D clarinet')
I don't presume to argue with an adopted Kölner, but I don't see a future tense in the German you quote, just a passive voice.

Do please feel free to correct me.
Wouldn't the future form be 'die ganze Stelle wird von der D-Klarinette ausführen?'
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #342 on: 13:17:11, 27-09-2007 »

"die ganze Stelle wird von der D-Klarinette ausgeführt" ... ('the whole passage will be played on the D clarinet')
I don't presume to argue with an adopted Kölner, but I don't see a future tense in the German you quote, just a passive voice.

Do please feel free to correct me.
My learned friend has the advantage where it comes to the finer points of grammatical construction, as well he knows, and I wouldn't presume to have a handle on when Germans elide the second 'werden' in such cases, as they often do in practice even if properly they shouldn't. On the other hand '...wird von der D-Klarinette ausgeführt werden' (the correct future passive form, I think?) I would, however wrongly, have translated as '...is going to be played on the D clarinet'.

All the same Mahler's formulation is not the one he uses when directing that a passage be played on another instrument or even when giving the option: in the 7th symphony he has for example 'eventuell auf Alt-Posaune zu blasen'; in the 5th he also has a rubato direction as '...ist stets etwas flüssig-nachlässig auszuführen'. I did try to find a version which reflected this difference while not too drastically misrepresenting the grammar. Clearly I failed dismally.

Naja. Et hätt doch immer jotjejange.
« Last Edit: 15:43:32, 27-09-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #343 on: 13:25:10, 27-09-2007 »

Could it be, I ask hesitantly, that what Mahler meant was that the passage in question is to be played by the player who otherwise plays the D clarinet? is this not perhaps implied by the "von" rather than say the "auf" in your "Alt-Posaune" example? I'm afraid I don't have time just now to trawl through my scores to see what he normally say when addressing player rather than instrument, if indeed he ever does, but, well, both Messrs Sudden and Now know my German is more enthusiastic than accurate.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #344 on: 13:32:35, 27-09-2007 »

"die ganze Stelle wird von der D-Klarinette ausgeführt" ... ('the whole passage will be played on the D clarinet')
I don't presume to argue with an adopted Kölner, but I don't see a future tense in the German you quote, just a passive voice.

Do please feel free to correct me.
Wouldn't the future form be 'die ganze Stelle wird von der D-Klarinette ausführen?'
Fraid not. You've lost the passive voice there.

The full correct form would be 'Die ganze Stelle wird von der D-Klarinette ausgeführt werden', since 'werden/wird' is used in German both to form the passive voice (werden + past participle) and the future tense (werden + infinitive). Ollie is of course quite right about the likely elision of one of the two auxiliary 'werden' in the future passive, but the point I was making was simply that 'wird von der D-Klarinette ausgeführt' is of itself an entirely normal passive construction.

'Eventuell' is a nice word: it means 'if needs be', I suppose, in the phrase Ollie cites ('eventuell auf Alt-Posaune zu blasen'). Certainly not 'eventually'! In that sense it's as liable to confuse people as its French cousin (as in the title of Boulez's essay 'Eventuellement ...': 'Possibly ...').
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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