The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
17:20:51, 01-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Hail bright Cecilia  (Read 654 times)
oliver sudden
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 6411



« Reply #15 on: 00:24:22, 03-10-2007 »

To be honest, I don't understand a word of it.

Er... you really don't? It all seems uncomfortably clear to me. (Apart from the livers, which are from an edition I'm not familiar with...Wink) Maybe I'm barking up the wrong end of the pineapple?
« Last Edit: 00:28:10, 03-10-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
Mary Chambers
*****
Gender: Female
Posts: 2589



« Reply #16 on: 00:33:42, 03-10-2007 »


 Truly beautiful is exquisite soprano solo by Emma Preston-Dunlop (I reckon):

"O dear white children casual as birds,
Playing among the ruined languages,
So small beside their large confusing words,
So gay against the greater silences
Of dreadful things you did: O hang the head,
Impetuous child with the tremendous brain,
O weep, child, weep, O weep away the stain,
Lost innocence who wished your lover dead,
Weep for the livers your wishes never led."


Would this be about Britten too?  'Lost innocence' and all that.  To be honest, I don't understand a word of it.  But it's absolutely beautiful in song.

I'm sure it is about him, but please, please correct livers in the last line to lives!!

There are several Auden poems dedicated to Britten. Much more didactic is "Underneath the Abject Willow" from 1936, basically telling BB it was time he stopped hesitating and gave in to.....well, sex.

Underneath the abject willow
Lover, sulk no more.
Act from thought should quickly follow,
What is thinking for?
Your unique and moping station
Proves you cold.
Stand up and fold
Your map of desolation.

Bells that toll across the meadows
From the sombre spire
Toll for those unloving shadows
Love does not require.
All that lives may love; why longer
Bow to loss
With arms across?
Strike and you shall conquer.

Geese in flocks above you flying
Their direction know;
Icy brooks beneath you flowing
To their ocean go.
Dark and dull is your distraction
Walk then, come,
No longer numb
In to your satisfaction




Since I was lying awake trying to remember the words, I thought I might as well google it and add it.
« Last Edit: 00:37:13, 03-10-2007 by Mary Chambers » Logged
MrYorick
Guest
« Reply #17 on: 23:06:22, 03-10-2007 »

I'm sure it is about him, but please, please correct livers in the last line to lives!!

Oops!  Embarrassed Cheesy All duly and well corrected now.

To be honest, I don't understand a word of it.
Er... you really don't? It all seems uncomfortably clear to me.

Ok, I had a sudden realisation.  Is it advice from Auden to Britten to lose the guilt and uncomfortableness about his sexuality?

The dear white children are the composers (Auden called Britten 'the white hope of music'), because they play in a place where language has failed: music.  Where language fails, the composer can still express himself.  Auden implores this particular composer, an impetuous child with a tremendous brain (Britten, an extremely gifted young boy) to weep, to weep away a stain: the stain his 'sinful' homosexual feelings made on his innocent soul.  He lost his innocence, he became 'guilty', a guilt that wished that his lover would die.  In his guilt he wished that the object that incited these sinful feelings in him would vanish.  (Claggart wishes the death of Billy Budd, because he can't endure the love this handsome sailor inspires in him... ??)  Leave it behind, says Auden, put it away; bury it and mourn, but get over it. 

I realise such a literal explanation has little sense and kills the poetry.  Still, am I missing the mark big time?

Thank you for 'Underneath the abject willow', Mary.  'Act from thought should quickly follow' should be my adagium.
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #18 on: 23:10:32, 03-10-2007 »

(Claggart wishes the death of Billy Budd, because he can't endure the love this handsome sailor inspires in him... ??)  Leave it behind, says Auden, put it away; bury it and mourn, but get over it. 
Well, isn't a wish to destroy the unattainable object of ones love/desires a long-standing theme in much literature/poetry/opera/etc, though, rather than being exclusive to a specifically homosexual theme?
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
MrYorick
Guest
« Reply #19 on: 23:32:05, 03-10-2007 »

(Claggart wishes the death of Billy Budd, because he can't endure the love this handsome sailor inspires in him... ??)  Leave it behind, says Auden, put it away; bury it and mourn, but get over it. 
Well, isn't a wish to destroy the unattainable object of ones love/desires a long-standing theme in much literature/poetry/opera/etc, though, rather than being exclusive to a specifically homosexual theme?

O, yes of course, I didn't want to narrow it down to a purely homosexual thing.  It's just been my personal interpretation of Claggart's motives to destroy Billy: that he can't cope with his feelings because they are 'forbidden'.  But I can see how one can interpret it in a more general way: he can't cope with them because they will never be satisfied, and therefore very painful (been there!).  Of course... very interesting, thank you.  Still, in the Auden poem it's a lost innocence who wished his lover dead, rather than a failed bid for love.

Ian, I'm going to answer some issues you raised on the German Requiem thread, but I'm going to have a proper listen again first.
Logged
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #20 on: 23:44:36, 03-10-2007 »

To be honest, I don't understand a word of it.

Er... you really don't? It all seems uncomfortably clear to me.
I'd be very interested to hear you expand on that, Ollie, if it's not too much of an imposition.

Perhaps especially the 'So gay against the greater silences/Of dreadful things you did' bit ...
Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
MrYorick
Guest
« Reply #21 on: 23:49:06, 03-10-2007 »

Yes, Oliver, please do...
Logged
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #22 on: 00:19:48, 04-10-2007 »

Getting back to Iolanthe and Wagner, the Fairy Queen in the original production was dressed as a stereotypical Wagnerian soprano, with breastplate and helmet. Sir Charles Mackerras, in his arrangement of Sullivan's music for his ballet Pineapple Poll incorporated the entrance of Iolanthe in act one and re-orchestrated it to make it sound more Wagnerian. I don't think there's any deep significance to it; making fun of operatic conventions is something that happens throughout G&S.
Logged
oliver sudden
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 6411



« Reply #23 on: 07:19:56, 04-10-2007 »

I'd be very interested to hear you expand on that, Ollie, if it's not too much of an imposition.

I don't have time to do that myself, but here's the passage from Auden's much-quoted letter:

Quote
"Goodness and Beauty are the results of a perfect balance between Order and Chaos, Bohemianism and Bourgeois Convention.

Bohemian Chaos alone ends in a mad jumble of beautiful scraps;  Bourgeois Convention alone ends in large unfeeling corpses.

Every artist except the supreme masters has a bias one way or the other.  The best pair of opposites I can think of in music are Wagner and Strauss.  (Technical skill always comes from the bourgeois side of one's nature.)

For middle-class Englishmen like you and me, the danger is of course the second.  Your attraction to thin-as-a-board juveniles, i.e. to the sexless and innocent, is a symptom of this.  And I am certain that it is your denial and evasion of the demands of disorder that is responsible for your attacks of ill-health, i.e. sickness is your substitute for the Bohemian.

Wherever you go you are and probably always will be surrounded by people who adore you, nurse you, and praise everything you do, e.g. Elizabeth, Peter...Up to a certain point this is fine for you, but beware.  You see, Bengy dear, you are always tempted to make things too easy for yourself in this way, i.e. to build yourself a warm nest of love (of course when you get it, you find it a little stifling) by playing the lovable talented little boy.

If you are to develop to your real stature, you will have, I think, to suffer, and make others suffer, in ways which are totally strange to you at present, and against every conscious value that you have;  i.e. you will have to be able to say what you never yet have had the right to say - God, I'm a shit."

And here's the Anthem for St. Cecilia's Day (for Benjamin Britten) - at least, as Britten set it:

Quote
I.

In a garden shady this holy lady
With reverent cadence and subtle psalm,
Like a black swan as death came on
Poured forth her song in perfect calm:
And by ocean's margin this innocent virgin
Constructed an organ to enlarge her prayer,
And notes tremendous from her great engine
Thundered out on the Roman air.
Blonde Aphrodite rose up excited,
Moved to delight by the melody,
White as an orchid she rode quite naked
In an oyster shell on top of the sea;
At sounds so entrancing the angels dancing
Came out of their trance into time again,
And around the wicked in Hell's abysses
The huge flame flickered and eased their pain.
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.


 
II.

I cannot grow;
I have no shadow
To run away from,
I only play.
I cannot err;
There is no creature
Whom I belong to,
Whom I could wrong.
I am defeat
When it knows it
Can now do nothing
By suffering.
All you lived through,
Dancing because you
No longer need it
For any deed.
I shall never be
Different. Love me.
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.


 
III.

O ear whose creatures cannot wish to fall,
O calm of spaces unafraid of weight,
Where Sorrow is herself, forgetting all
The gaucheness of her adolescent state,
Where Hope within the altogether strange
From every outworn image is released,
And Dread born whole and normal like a beast
Into a world of truths that never change:
Restore our fallen day; O re-arrange.
O dear white children casual as birds,
Playing among the ruined languages,
So small beside their large confusing words,
So gay against the greater silences
Of dreadful things you did: O hang the head,
Impetuous child with the tremendous brain,
O weep, child, weep, O weep away the stain,
Lost innocence who wished your lover dead,
Weep for the lives your wishes never led.
O cry created as the bow of sin
Is drawn across our trembling violin.
O weep, child, weep, O weep away the stain.
O law drummed out by hearts against the still
Long winter of our intellectual will.
That what has been may never be again.
O flute that throbs with the thanksgiving breath
Of convalescents on the shores of death.
O bless the freedom that you never chose.
O trumpets that unguarded children blow
About the fortress of their inner foe.
O wear your tribulation like a rose.
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.

They're from about the same time; the Anthem was a little before the letter. Pears saw the setting of the text as Britten's farewell to Auden: "Ben was on a different track now, and he was no longer prepared to be dominated – bullied – by Wystan, whose musical feeling he was very well aware of. ...Perhaps he may have been said to have said goodbye to working with Wystan with his marvelous setting of the Hymn (Anthem) to St. Cecilia."

I can't for the life of me see what the second and third sections have to do with St Cecilia but it's pretty clear to me what they have to do with Britten!
Logged
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #24 on: 10:23:46, 04-10-2007 »

I can't for the life of me see what the second and third sections have to do with St Cecilia but it's pretty clear to me what they have to do with Britten!
Ah. When you said 'it all seems uncomfortably clear to me' I think I thought you were suggesting you could see both at the same time. Surely that's the difficult bit.

I might have a go later, if I'm feeling brave ...

It's a beautiful poem, in no small part because its metaphors are so obviously metaphorical and yet what they metaphorise is so not clear at all. On the other hand, I find 'Underneath an abject willow' nowhere near as rich: crushed by the obviousness of its implications. The wrong type of ambiguity, as it were.
« Last Edit: 17:57:55, 05-10-2007 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Mary Chambers
*****
Gender: Female
Posts: 2589



« Reply #25 on: 12:56:05, 04-10-2007 »


I'd be very interested to hear you expand on that, Ollie, if it's not too much of an imposition.

Perhaps especially the 'So gay against the greater silences/Of dreadful things you did' bit ...

Does anyone know when the word "gay" for homosexual was first used?
Logged
David_Underdown
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 346



« Reply #26 on: 14:51:34, 04-10-2007 »

1920s according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay 1935 seems to be first rcord that the OED has traced.  Incidentally, most UK library members actually have access to online OED, and various other resources (including Grove) via subscribtions taken out by their local library service.  You should be able to find details via your council's website.
« Last Edit: 15:33:20, 04-10-2007 by David_Underdown » Logged

--
David
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #27 on: 15:12:12, 04-10-2007 »

You should be bale to find detials via your council's website.
I'll bear that in mind. Thanks, David.

(Though since I don't actually exist it might be more difficult for me than for others. Undecided)
Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
thompson1780
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3615



« Reply #28 on: 15:22:56, 05-10-2007 »

While we are on the subject of WHA and BB, any comments on Paul Bunyan, (a work I have never heard)?

Try this thread:  http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=257.0

and possibly a search for 'paul bunyan' on the homepage.

Tommo
Logged

Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to: