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Author Topic: The Happiest Days of your Life?  (Read 944 times)
Tony Watson
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« Reply #15 on: 23:17:49, 23-01-2008 »

OK, here's my school story. It sounds big-headed and rather self-pitying but I hope you know me better than that by now.

My first year of secondary school was spent at an establishment that had just gone comprehensive after being a grammar school, but many of the teachers and traditions survived. I was in the top set, it was just before the summer holidays, and we had recently taken end-of-year exams.

We had one lesson of religious education a week, taken by a stereotypical games teacher (think Kes). Anyway, he caught me looking out of the window one day and so he demanded to know, in his usual abrupt manner, how I had got on in a couple of my subjects (there had been no exam in RE). The answer was I had come first both of them. So he tried other subjects and it was much the same answer. (In fact I had come first in everything except for third in English and second in biology - I think it was.) "Oh, perhaps you can afford to look out of the window then," he said.

Unfortunately I left that summer because I didn't get on with two of the boys and a new school had just opened nearer to home. I had assumed that schools were much the same but how wrong I was. This new school had no academic ambitions at all and it seemed to me that it wanted to bring everyone down to the lowest level, something for which socialism is sometimes blamed. It made me more of a Tory than Margaret Thatcher later proved to be, although I've mellowed with age. My parents tried to get me back into the first school but no one would listen. They didn't know what to say or whom to see and the headmaster was obstinate.

In the end I was the only person in my year in a school of about 1,000 to go to university and the only one to get more than two A-levels (largely because most of the others had transfered from a secondary modern). This was after I was urged to apply only to polytechnics and not universities at all, despite decent O-levels. I had wanted to read English but they said that competition was too fierce and I was badly advised to apply for a course that combined English with music, even though I wasn't doing music A-level. The result was five straight rejections, no interviews, no open days. When the results came out I applied for just English and got straight in through the clearing system.

My one regret in life is that I didn't go to a grammar school, or at least an academic type of school.  To this day, I won't listen to anyone who praises the virtues of comprehensive education, unless he has been to such a school himself.
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #16 on: 09:06:36, 24-01-2008 »

I do think, Tony, that your experience of comprehensive education was incredibly unlucky. It sounds very different from many comps. My husband and I were both privately educated, and we both enjoyed it, but when our own children were due to go to school (70s and 80s) we decided that in the much more egalitarian society that had evolved since our own schooldays, that sort of social separation was inappropriate. The boys went to the local primary school and then the comp. Admittedly both these schools were very good, and there were plenty of state schools I wouldn't have dreamt of sending them to - so egalitarianism only went so far! (Though there were also private schools I wouldn't have contemplated.) The comp was ambitious for its bright pupils, sent plenty to university, including Oxbridge (though I have heard it was less good with less bright kids). Both the boys went to good universities, one of them to Cambridge - he got the highest A-level results in the entire district, beating all the private schools.

Of course there were undesirable elements - tough kids with no interest in being educated, a certain philistinism, but I doubt if they were more undesirable than the social climbing, snobbery, over-valuing of money and over-emphasis on games that they would have encountered at a private school. I asked the boys, when they were grown up, whether they were glad they had been to that school. Both were, and the one who went to Cambridge said "Yes, because otherwise I'd just have been a Cambridge clone". They certainly have far more experience of different sorts of people than I had at their age.
« Last Edit: 09:56:43, 24-01-2008 by Mary Chambers » Logged
Milly Jones
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« Reply #17 on: 09:18:35, 24-01-2008 »

Our intention was to keep our boys in the State system.  They went to State primary and junior schools and because we live in a very good catchment area, the start was very good.  However, our local comprensive is absolutely enormous and covers such a wide area I felt that my two would have just been overlooked.  They were bright but lazy and unless pupils are disruptive, they seem to be left to fend for themselves.  Mine would have done as little as possible and would have got away with it.  So at 11 they both went to a private school with small classes where they wouldn't be allowed to sit back and do the bare minimum.  They both needed a shove.  It proved to be the correct decision.

I also had the same idea of State education for my grandchild as far as possible although at 11 he would still only have the choice of that one comprehensive.  However, it was obviously not meeting his requirements so I hoisted him out and put him into a private school where he has blossomed and thrived.  My other one has gone straight into the private sector and will stay all the way up.

The local comprehensive does have an element that has excellent results.  It would need to for the size it is.  It also has more than its fair share of the other element and whilst none of my offspring seem to be easily-led I decided not to put them in the way of trouble before they had to be.  It always comes later in their life and you just have to hope and pray they don't get in with the wrong crowd.

The private sector does have a more materialistic attitude I grant you - but you don't have to join in with that.   I'm hoping that if he continues to flourish he may get a scholarship at 11.  They only have a couple of free places though and competition is fierce.  I'm not relying on it and I'm certainly not going to push him.  He's doing fine on his own.
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #18 on: 09:38:56, 24-01-2008 »

It obviously does depend on what's available in your area, and I'm sure I'd have done the same in your case, Milly.  Tony's post isn't actually about private v. state, I realise - it's about grammar v. comp. There aren't any grammar schools where I live, so the choice is only state or private. Another point is that at the time the available private schools were all single sex, which I didn't want for boys - though I wouldn't have minded for girls! The class size problem wasn't acute, because for all important subjects they were in sets of reasonable size.

My brother also sent his son to a comprehensive, because he had hated his public school so bitterly - and certainly his son had much happier schooldays than he did, though public schools are more civilised now, I think.
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #19 on: 09:53:17, 24-01-2008 »

My experience was similar to Tony's, only in reverse.  I went to a comprehensive school that had previously been a secondary modern: the teachers were a very mixed bag, but it had a depressingly utilitarian philosophy of education, if it could be called that at all.  I do remember one of the fool careers advisers telling us all that if we hadn't decided 'what we were going to do with our lives' by the age of 14, then we were 'in trouble'.  It didn't occur to me to ask the obvious question and inquire whether he'd been all set on becoming a career adviser at that age?

And there was the games teacher who once tore someone's copy of Smash Hits out of their hand and read aloud to the class an interview with Boy George contained therein, in which B.G. stated that the one person he'd take to a desert island would be 'our drummer, Jon Moss'.  'Isn't that disgusting?' sneered the miserable bullying bigot, who is still, as I write this, 'teaching' at the same school.  Angry
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richard barrett
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« Reply #20 on: 10:15:12, 24-01-2008 »

Just to redress the balance somewhat: I went to a comprehensive school, which had been purpose-built as such in the 1960s, and I would regard it as having been a pretty good school. (Whether it still is is another question.) I'm not saying my school days were perfect by any means, but I'd hesitate to blame their imperfections on the school, still less the comprehensive system in general, which I believe is kind of self-evidently the way schools ought to be in a society which even pays lipservice to equality of opportunity.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #21 on: 11:39:12, 24-01-2008 »

My daughter attends the local comprehensive, which is in most respects an excellent and academically ambitious school, with a very wide range of extra-curricular activities.  She has been very happy there, and I am convinced that she has had an education every bit as good as in the private sector - in fact we turned down the offer of a place at the local girls' independent school.

But...

She attends the school that Brighton's middle-classes are prepared to lie, cheat and sell their elderly relatives to get their kids into.  The main reason why she is there is that, in the face of all the rhetoric about choice, we can afford to buy the right postcode and live in the right catchment area: when Brighton council tried to make the catchments more equable (because the schools are not evenly distributed geographically around town), all hell broke loose.  There are wonderful things going on in other schools, but, as long as selection by parental income exists, we will never have a truly comprehensive system; it is a simple and demonstrable fact that educational attainment, in general (of course there are large numbers of individual counter-examples, but the general trend is clear) is closely linked to parental income. 

It is interesting that some of the strongest pressure to go comprehensive in the 1960s and 1970s came from middle-class parents who didn't like the risk that academic failure would mean their kids mixing with the oiks in the secondary-modern; parental choice has largely allowed that ethos to prevail, and it seems to me that a lot of the rhetoric from both Tories and New Labour is about keeping it that way.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #22 on: 11:45:40, 24-01-2008 »

pw, I know you travel around Europe a good deal - does the situation whereby parents move to the best catchment area tend to apply in many other countries as well (I gather it certainly does in France; in some of the 'Catholic countries' I've heard that a tendency on the parts of families to remain rooted in particular areas where there are relatives, and thus when it comes to higher education a lesser tendency to go to a different city, can also be restrictive when various areas of public life are dominated by people who all studied in the same capital city)?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Don Basilio
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« Reply #23 on: 12:15:00, 24-01-2008 »

My experience parallels pw.  Prep school hell, Big school OK.  Particularly when I moved into the Fifth at 15 and realised the masters would talk to me as an adult.

The prep school was set in a small country house overlooking the Exe estuary, and was probably the most idyllic surroundings I have known.  Every day there was one of constant fear.  The headmaster/proprietor was a bullying, philistine snob.  He was an uncultured former military officer who produced a parody of a public school for boys up to 13.  We had games every single afternoon, in full view of the foothills of Dartmoor.  The rest of the staff I realised later were immensely sweet,no doubt in an attempt to make up to us.

If Tony W and sk's education understandably make them sympathetic to the right, mine at prep school in due course made me sympathetic in part to the left (which I discovered when I was so fortunate to learn about  it at my ancient university.)

But the real cause of anxiety in my schooldays was not teachers - it was the perpetual fear of intimidation by other pupils.  At my prep school, bullies had the example of the head (and his approval given his contempt for "sneaks"), but I knew it at the church state primary I attended for the first year of my education.  I can only remember one time being physically assaulted, but the fear of intimidation was always around.

I have never read Lord of the Flies.  I can remember hearing about it at school with the reviews that it was very shocking suggesting that kids can be nasty.  I thought it was self evidently apparent that they can be very nasty indeed without control.
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #24 on: 12:35:50, 24-01-2008 »

I went to a very academic comprehensive, which I enjoyed for the most part.  The one thing I really hated about it was that the music tradition was practically non-existent, and although I took music A-level and was involved in the founding of our school G&S society, we had an appallingly bad orchestra and no choir until a maths teacher set one up at lunchtimes.  The one thing I would change about my school career is to have gone to a school where the head of music was proactive, and where the opportunities for extracurricular and higher education as a singer had been made much more explicit to me during my GCSE and A-level music education.

I was also strongly discouraged from taking both English Lang and English Lit A-levels, as I was told that universities frown upon the lack of diversity.  I started sixth form doing English Lit, Music and Politics (in which I had little interest) and finally switched from Politics to English Lang midway through the first term, which required some upheaval (I had originally been in the English Lit set whose classes clashed with the English Lang classes, so I had to switch English Lit classes which meant different teachers and different set texts).  It's just as well that I did switch, because English Lang ended up being the subject I chose for my degree.

Back to my first point, I really feel in hindsight that my school severely held me back musically.  Although I always loved music and was reasonably good at it, I certainly wasn't inspired to be good enough to think about it as a degree subject (my music teacher, bless him, was lovely but not terribly effective).  My musical instincts really only blossomed once I was at university.  I discovered opera just as I was doing my A-levels.  Ironically, it was the day after I sat my Music paper that I went to my first opera, which changed my life.  If I'd been only a couple of months younger I'd have been in the year below, and if I'd discovered opera when I did, I might have done a lot better in my Music A-level, especially given that the set work for the term after I left school was "Fidelio".

I understand that the musical life of my old school has improved since then, under the guidance of a new head of music (formerly the charismatic and inspirational conductor of Durham County Youth Choir, in which I sang from age 13-18).  He's now left, so I'm not sure how things are now.
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Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #25 on: 12:37:48, 24-01-2008 »

I don't particularly want to talk about school days, because (a) they were not happy years at all, and I tend to sideline them in my mind nowadays, and (b) one of my teachers is here posting in this very thread (I will say that I have the most positive memories of maths teachers from there, though! Smiley )! One thing school did teach me was a profound scepticism bordering on outright disrespect for most forms of authority, and to absolutely detest all forms of snobbery.
« Last Edit: 12:39:47, 24-01-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Jonathan
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« Reply #26 on: 12:57:04, 24-01-2008 »

I also do not wish to post about school - the first two schools I went to, (aged 5 - 8 and 8 - 11) were excellent and, although I mucked about a lot and never did any work, I was well thought of.  I had a gang at Primary School which was good.

However, my senior school (aged 11 - 16) was unremittingly awful for me.  I won't go into details but I was very, very glad to leave and go to a local 6th form college (for A levels) where I knew no-one from before.
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Jonathan
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #27 on: 13:24:33, 24-01-2008 »

  I had a gang at Primary School which was good.

Sorry to sound unfriendly but your type was probably the  reason my earlier schools were hell.

And Ian, if only there had been responsible authority at my prep school to stop bullying, rather than encourage it by example.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #28 on: 13:27:06, 24-01-2008 »

I had a gang at Primary School which was good.

That's triggered a memory that I'd almost forgotten about. I announced I was forming an anti-gang at primary school that was meant as a sort of piss-take of all the other gangs. You had to not want to be in a gang in order to be a member. We were called The Hippos. There were about eight of us in the end which rather defeated the purpose but the main perk was we were a bit like Switzerland: no one could be bothered to beat us up because we didn't count as a proper gang.

Oh dear, one other Primary School memory. I kissed the fragrant Gillian Hammond illicitly in break once when I was about eight. Someone told me I had been seen by a teacher and it was an expelling offence. I believed them and was absolutely distraught for days dreading the call to go to the Headmaster's office. How to break the news to my parents? Don't laugh. It was awful.  

« Last Edit: 13:47:38, 24-01-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #29 on: 13:28:20, 24-01-2008 »

And Ian, if only there had been responsible authority at my prep school to stop bullying, rather than encourage it by example.
Certainly - alas many existing models of authority do tend towards the latter.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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