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Author Topic: Johann Hari on Oxbridge  (Read 450 times)
Ruby2
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« Reply #15 on: 22:46:18, 10-09-2008 »

Tradition?
I'll freely [albeit reluctantly] admit to being very fond of tradition and heritage.  It doesn't add anything at all but I'm fond of it.  It's a very English thing, I suspect.  Embarrassed

I went to the school my mum went to.  My English teacher, of whom everyone in my year was terrified, was in the year below her, which I love.  It's in the school photo for 19somethingtysomething. She looked exactly the same with less wrinkles.  The hair was identical.

My mum's domestic science teacher was still there when I started.  Now who wouldn't enjoy that madness?  Bearing in mind that my mum was 35 when she had me.  You could kind of spot the "she-probably-taught-my-mum"ness from the whiteness of the hair and the level of fondness/tolerance from the other teachers.  Cheesy
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"Two wrongs don't make a right.  But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
Baz
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« Reply #16 on: 22:58:06, 10-09-2008 »


Are you suggesting that your time as a student at Christ Church College Oxford damaged your learning experience as an Oxford undergraduate because every night (following a long tradition commemorating the fact that at a certain historic time there were 101 registered undergraduates) the College bell still tolled 101 times every night at 21.05? Or are you complaining that the perpetration of this "tradition" upset you because it was "in fact extremely political" in its motivation. I am not clear. (For what it is worth, those others of us trying to study in Oxford at other Colleges also had to tolerate this clanging every night, though it never occurred to some of us that it was the result of "political" motivation.)

But it seems from the generally well-turned-out presentation of your postings that your education was not that much misdirected (or is this also an unacceptable "political" comment?).

Baz

Not that it damaged it - simply that it was irrelevant.  And I think - like so many of the traditions of Oxford - it was a demonstration of power and wealth, and, to that extent, political (even if not politically-motivated, which I think is something different).

But surely what it was demonstrating was a celebration of student achievement! The College had, above all the others, attracted no fewer than 101 talented undergraduates, and this historic event was to be celebrated as a milestone for generations to come. What is political about celebrating educational achievement?

Surely the mistake is to ignore the true motivation - and its historical genesis - and merely impose upon it a kind of modern presumption that since it has no clear connectivity with the modern world it must be suspect in some way. You could say that about the very building and architecture - but you would not (I hope) advocate demolishing it because it was not designed and built by Norman Foster?!

Baz
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #17 on: 23:46:39, 10-09-2008 »

I have yet to read a single sentence in any of your postings (here or elsewhere) that shows a regard for education as EDUCATION.
But that is the whole issue - what does that very term mean in itself? Just saying it's synonymous with itself (albeit in block capitals) hardly says very much.

As for my own apparent 'relentless take on "political correctness"', it's not a term I use very often. But I don't accept that the issues we are discussing are somehow autonomous of political dimensions. In fact, I don't think there is much in the world that is independent of such considerations.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #18 on: 00:19:17, 11-09-2008 »

One small side-issue which I find laughable and saddening in equal measures...   the "educated at Oxford" racket.

Here where I live, there is one particular Language School (specialising in English) whose Principal sports an "educated at Oxford" tag. Native Brits would spot the ruse instantly - it's not a Degree from the University, but from another institution which issues educational certificates, which happens to be based - geographically - in Oxford. 

Well, fair enough, you may say - local people in Oxford should have a proper system of tertiary education accessible to them.  However, I fear that this particular institution is one that doesn't require much (or, ehem) any attendance,  and payment of the fees, plus completion of an exam-paper quickly shoos the candidate into a fancy-looking Diploma.

Where my problems arise is that this character is - forgive the judgemental tone - only semi-literate.  I'm especially aware of this, because I occasionally (as a favour) proof-read copy for a few websites here, and his rants pass across my screen.  Verbs with no sentences, crass grammatical errors, apostrophes scatter-gunned over the page pell-mell - not only depressing, but editing work I could well do without.  The (Russian-born) editor assumes that our "Oxford-educated" fellow must write with verve and aplomb, and barely needs editing at all Sad The idea that this character not only teaches English, but heads a Language School,  is deeply depressing.  Nor is he from Oxford or remotely nearby, I should add.

And all achieved with the aid of an "education in Oxford" Sad   One that any of us could put on a credit card Sad  Oh, and of course - the Old College Tie (which he wears assiduously each day).
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-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
richard barrett
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« Reply #19 on: 00:24:01, 11-09-2008 »

And all achieved with the aid of an "education in Oxford" Sad   One that any of us could put on a credit card Sad  Oh, and of course - the Old College Tie (which he wears assiduously each day).

I'm amazed he gets away with it! What are his rants about?
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #20 on: 01:40:51, 11-09-2008 »

And all achieved with the aid of an "education in Oxford" Sad   One that any of us could put on a credit card Sad  Oh, and of course - the Old College Tie (which he wears assiduously each day).

I'm amazed he gets away with it! What are his rants about?

He has apparently also got a TEFL certificate - which is the only thing you need to set up in the Language School business.  The rants articles are about the EFL business etc - there are lots of foreigners here involved in it, so its big business.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Baz
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« Reply #21 on: 08:44:58, 11-09-2008 »

I have yet to read a single sentence in any of your postings (here or elsewhere) that shows a regard for education as EDUCATION.
But that is the whole issue - what does that very term mean in itself? Just saying it's synonymous with itself (albeit in block capitals) hardly says very much.

I agree that the term needs proper explanation. Your first port of call might be HERE which explores the concept in outline (together with its various systems) - and it is noteworthy for the complete lack of any mention of "politics".

Quote
As for my own apparent 'relentless take on "political correctness"', it's not a term I use very often. But I don't accept that the issues we are discussing are somehow autonomous of political dimensions. In fact, I don't think there is much in the world that is independent of such considerations.

I agree that that is your own view, but I must make it clear (if it has not already been made clear to you) that I disagree with it. It is the intrusion of that dimension that constricts and strangles everything with which it interacts.

Baz
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #22 on: 09:53:37, 11-09-2008 »

I agree that the term needs proper explanation. Your first port of call might be HERE which explores the concept in outline (together with its various systems) - and it is noteworthy for the complete lack of any mention of "politics".
A Wiki page is hardly the best place for examining such a concept. But there is very little on there that isn't itself political - for example in the first sentence, the mention of 'mental, moral & aesthetic development'.

Quote
I agree that that is your own view, but I must make it clear (if it has not already been made clear to you) that I disagree with it. It is the intrusion of that dimension that constricts and strangles everything with which it interacts.
On the contrary, I think that your attempts to render your own heavily political beliefs on education (including institutions, teaching methods, canons, or anything else) as somehow being outside of politics is a cheap rhetorical strategy. The same goes for the aesthetic dimension.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #23 on: 10:25:00, 11-09-2008 »

Baz, you do already realise, don't you, that you're doing battle with Don Qwerty, the Knight of the Movable Goalposts?
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #24 on: 10:27:10, 11-09-2008 »

I agree that the term [education] needs proper explanation.


We see the rôle of the educator as rather like that of Maxwell's demon; that is to say his duty is only to open the trapdoor at just the right moment when the youth is ready.

Politics is an entirely different field. No advantage can come from blurring traditional distinctions; indeed on the contrary, clarity and good grammar must be the great desiderata in life.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #25 on: 10:34:55, 11-09-2008 »

Verbs with no sentences
Gosh! Even at Cambridge they don't teach you how to do that!! Wink
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richard barrett
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« Reply #26 on: 10:37:57, 11-09-2008 »

We see the rôle of the educator as rather like that of Maxwell's demon; that is to say his duty is only to open the trapdoor at just the right moment when the youth is ready.

This is an interesting analogy - you must know, however, that in reality Maxwell's demon is a physical impossibility, because of the expenditure of energy in the interaction between the demon and the particles he's allowing through the gate. So it is with education: before opening the door one needs to ascertain where the door is and how it might be opened, and finding these things out already changes something in both teacher and student.
« Last Edit: 10:39:57, 11-09-2008 by richard barrett » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #27 on: 10:49:44, 11-09-2008 »

Baz, you do already realise, don't you, that you're doing battle with Don Qwerty, the Knight of the Movable Goalposts?

Don't you mean WE ARE THE KNIGHTS WHO SAY: BRING OUT YOUR STRAW MEN!



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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #28 on: 11:06:57, 11-09-2008 »

Verbs with no sentences
Gosh! Even at Cambridge they don't teach you how to do that!! Wink

I was being intentionally ironic Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Baz
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« Reply #29 on: 11:34:48, 11-09-2008 »

I agree that the term needs proper explanation. Your first port of call might be HERE which explores the concept in outline (together with its various systems) - and it is noteworthy for the complete lack of any mention of "politics".
A Wiki page is hardly the best place for examining such a concept. But there is very little on there that isn't itself political - for example in the first sentence, the mention of 'mental, moral & aesthetic development'.

Quote
I agree that that is your own view, but I must make it clear (if it has not already been made clear to you) that I disagree with it. It is the intrusion of that dimension that constricts and strangles everything with which it interacts.
On the contrary, I think that your attempts to render your own heavily political beliefs on education (including institutions, teaching methods, canons, or anything else) as somehow being outside of politics is a cheap rhetorical strategy. The same goes for the aesthetic dimension.

"...Yes - I should have realized that...



...PHEEEW! - That was your life mate"

"Oh sorry - do I get another chance?"

"No - sorry - that's your lot I'm afraid"
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