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Author Topic: Ars Subtilior  (Read 1137 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #15 on: 20:38:16, 25-03-2007 »

note durations are indicated on a note-by-note basis - as in most ars subtilior compositions - the transcriptional imposition of "tuplets" is merely an editorial eccentricity that removes the performer still further from the mind of the actual composer (IMHO).
Now I don't go around singing this kind of thing, or any other kind of thing actually, but I do listen to a lot of people who do, and I think that keeping the notation as close as possible to the original when transcribing it has to be a good idea, because if you start thinking in bars and tuplets and so on, it's bound to impact on the performance (mind you, so is learning an unfamiliar notational system). Text underlay is also a recurring problem in this repertoire - for example, what actually happens at the end of "Belle bonne" - a massive extension of the last syllable? some other syllable? an instrumental postlude? (if instruments are indeed appropriate at all) or is the text in the MS not even intended to be lined up with the notes it appears under? etc.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #16 on: 21:17:34, 25-03-2007 »

Wow. And there's even a distinction between the coloration and the proportional symbol...
And there's white notation within a proportional bit. How can you possibly render all of these in a manner that gets even close to the composer's intentions?
It's one of those moments when I suspect that we should be singing from the original notation.
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #17 on: 03:48:27, 26-03-2007 »

I don't really like the dotted notes in that transcription, in the "4:3" passages (e.g. mm 16-17) - there really should be tuplets there, dots are a different animal...
I don't agree with your first par. The groups are not "tuplets" at all: each separate note is accorded an exact proportional duration by the use of coloration. This is echoed exactly in the transcription.
No, of course they're not tuplets, but I'm uncomfortable with the notion that they are best thought of as one-and-a-half times something rather than a sesquialtera-ratio pulse; it's a question of how one conceives of the syncopation.  I guess the only satisfactory solution is to use a different kind of notehead entirely - perhaps in a different color?  Wink
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Baziron
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« Reply #18 on: 09:45:43, 26-03-2007 »

I agree with you Evan from a performing point of view, and interestingly enough so did Senlenches! What I did not provide in my first message was the information/instructions written in red on the ribbon around the post of the harp (not very visible in the graphic I'm afraid). This invites both exactitude in note lengths, but also the need to keep in mind the Tempus (and, to us, tuplets are possibly the simplest notational method).

The instructions are a poem written in the form of a Rondeau (ABaAabAB) as follows:

A Si tu me veultz proprement pronuncier Sus la tenur pour miex estre d'acort
B Diapenthe te convient comencier, Ou autrement tu seras en discort

a Pars blanc et noir per mi sans oublier Lay le tonant, ou tu feras tort.

A Si tu me veultz proprement pronuncier Sus la tenur pour miex estre d'acort

a Puis va cassant duz temps sanz forvoier, Premier note en .d. prent son ressort
b Harpe toudis sans espasse blechier, Par sentement me puis douner confort.

A Si tu me veultz proprement pronuncier Sus la tenur pour miex estre d'acort
B Diapenthe te convient comencier, Ou autrement tu seras en discort

Translation:

If you wish to perform me correctly, you must begin a fifth above the tenor to be in tune, otherwise you will be out of tune.

Do not forget that the black and white notes should sound half in value, otherwise you will perform them wrongly.

If you wish to perform me correctly, above the tenor to be in tune,

Then follow in canon at two units of Tempus without straying. The first note takes its starting point from 'd'. Harp always without using the spaces; with feeling you can give me satisfaction.

If you wish to perform me correctly, you must begin a fifth above the tenor to be in tune, otherwise you will be out of tune.


Baz
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richard barrett
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« Reply #19 on: 13:52:14, 12-05-2007 »

Continuing from the "Handel oratorios" thread, where I opened a can of subtilior worms:

What is Fumeux fume about, asks Reiner. Mary Springfels has this to say: "Solage's "Fumeux fume" pokes fun at a group of giddy young men who called themselves the Society of Fumeurs (smokers). One of their number was the poet Eustace Deschamps, the self-proclaimed nephew of Guillaume de Machaut, and a habitué of the French court. I suspect that he is the "Smokey" of the song. The poem, a rondeau, is unusually short, while the composition is unusually long, inviting the singer and the audience to lose track of what little sense the words make in the first place. The marvelously bizarre chromaticism of the music also leads the musicians through tonal labyrinths. In short, the piece is a vivid, merciless evocation of drug-induced inebriation. Did the Fumeurs smoke? and if so, what? Opium or hashish are the most likely candidates."

This is a pretty fanciful interpretation, it seems to me. And indeed, were these drugs available in northern Europe at the time?

There's an interesting article by Yolanda Plumley (Early Music History 18 (1999), pp287-363) in which the matter of citation and allusion in this repertoire is examined at length, and whole complex networks of quotes and correspondences are revealed, without really tackling the question of why they might be there.

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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #20 on: 14:15:22, 12-05-2007 »

I suppose I had also made the fairly literalist "leap" in assuming that this Rondeau was connected in some way to smoking..  and to smoking hashish,  since Sir Walter Raleigh was still 300 years from giving Bob Newhart material for a comic routine :-)

I'm open to any other interpretation, and in fact I'd rather like one?  I have no information about the usage of hashish in Europe in the C14th,  but I'm inclined to believe that if the rebec (rebab), lute (el oud), shawm (zurna), and nakers (naqari) had all successfully transplanted to Europe during the Crusades, then hashish might have done too?

Any other material with a concealed social context? Smiley

Thanks to Baz for the translation of the rubrics appearing on the harp, btw.

PS, another question about Fumeux Fume - isn't the tessitura (three bass voices) extraordinary for the period?  Does anyone know of much else written for a similar ensemble?
« Last Edit: 14:20:29, 12-05-2007 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #21 on: 14:28:21, 12-05-2007 »

I don't really like the dotted notes in that transcription, in the "4:3" passages (e.g. mm 16-17) - there really should be tuplets there, dots are a different animal...
I don't agree with your first par. The groups are not "tuplets" at all: each separate note is accorded an exact proportional duration by the use of coloration. This is echoed exactly in the transcription.
No, of course they're not tuplets, but I'm uncomfortable with the notion that they are best thought of as one-and-a-half times something rather than a sesquialtera-ratio pulse; it's a question of how one conceives of the syncopation.  I guess the only satisfactory solution is to use a different kind of notehead entirely - perhaps in a different color?  Wink
The big error from the get-go is to use the term syncopation, I think. That implies too strongly the sense of weak and strong beats, which is a simpler notion of meter/mensuration/tactus/agogia hierarchy than scholars presume was being practiced. As for your discomfort with something being one-and-a-half times something else, perhaps it's because you have a Latin fetish. sesquialtera means 'one-and-a-half times'. Meanwhile, the 'something [vs.]... something' is reflected in the term ratio.
Meanwhile-meanwhile, putting 4:3 is much worse, as it implies that these are mere numbers, and one could just as well have made it 5:3 or 4:x. This is not possible for this particular notational world -- it required another innovation in another part of the galaxy at another time.
I like your idea of simply making the notes red or something, but don't you think the dots are fine as long as they aren't sung like a syncopation? The danger that the dots will be misunderstood with this caveat is, I think, less than the danger that your red notes will simply make the edition too expensive or unnecessarily cryptic. But perhaps you wanted them green or blue. That's different. :-)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #22 on: 15:16:56, 12-05-2007 »

another question about Fumeux Fume - isn't the tessitura (three bass voices) extraordinary for the period?  Does anyone know of much else written for a similar ensemble?
Quite a lot of the music of Johannes Tinctoris is written in a weirdly low tessitura, including a Missa sine nomine for three voices whose lowest part goes down to a subterranean B, but that's about a century later than the music we're talking about here.

Maybe the low voices are in imitation of someone having just, er, inhaled deeply.
« Last Edit: 15:21:55, 12-05-2007 by richard barrett » Logged
aaron cassidy
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« Reply #23 on: 16:48:06, 12-05-2007 »

Meanwhile-meanwhile, putting 4:3 is much worse, as it implies that these are mere numbers, and one could just as well have made it 5:3 or 4:x. This is not possible for this particular notational world -- it required another innovation in another part of the galaxy at another time.

I would generally agree-ish, ... however, it's certainly worth noting that Arabic numerals start figuring rather prominently in several Chantilly MS pieces, referring directly to ratio (and, well, even "pulse streams," as Evan would say).  Somewhere up there on this thread is a link to a Rodericus ballade w/ various 4s, 3s, and 2s scattered about, particularly in the tenor, if I remember correctly.

Edit:  Apparently, that link was posted on another thread entirely, and I can't seem to track it down.  Hm.  Anyhow, here goes:  http://www.aaroncassidy.com/images/scores/rodericus2.gif

Edit2:  only 3's and 2's, no 4's.
« Last Edit: 00:47:57, 13-05-2007 by aaron cassidy » Logged
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