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John W
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« Reply #45 on: 21:49:59, 25-11-2007 » |
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I'm rather saddened when a composer invites people "behind the scenes" to participate in the "making" of a piece - whatever you think of that piece of the composer's approach - and in response a herd of rhino then trample the thing into the dust?  I really wonder what you all "gain" from this... some kind of sense of superiority? Or are you bastioning yourselves against the fear of the unknown? Reiner and Bryn, I do sympathise with you, on the surface some of us are treating Matthew harshly, but he has posted on our forum just one subject and we are entitled to question his composition 'technique' in which he requests participation, in a method which is hardly new or innovative, and not 'unknown', it's just an arty game. I'm going to try and be helpful in suggesting now that an entrirely different and original approach to music-making be devised by Matthew which might interest us all. Considering our responses here, and there is a danger that his exam judges will have the same mixed feelings and lead to a poor result/mark. I wish more of today's composers would just sit down and write some music - the majority of young people today only respond to 'serious' new music like the Harry Potter theme music (which I was listening to right now on CFM), yes I know Hedwig's Theme is not very original either  One thing I enjoyed recently was listening to music accompanying a Honda commercial where a choir made all the clunk and swishing noises of a car on a journey, and the conductor contributed a timely stamping of foot; I thought that was original (tell me if I'm wrong, and indeed tell me who the composer was if you can) John W
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Bryn
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« Reply #46 on: 21:57:06, 25-11-2007 » |
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O.K. John, I should come clean. On reading Matthew's flier, I suggested he might like to mention the project here, on the M&S board and at r.m.c.c. For some strange reason I though some here might be both adveturous and supportive enough to engage positively with what he was attempting. Instead he's discovered our grumpy old duo.
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Baz
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« Reply #47 on: 22:01:47, 25-11-2007 » |
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If either Bryn or Reiner (and anyone else) thinks my scepticism that the provision of a Tesco receipt (either scanned or sent as genuine) amounts to anything in any way "artistic" betrays somehow my lost youth, then that is what I must call "sad".
I enjoyed MY youth, and made the best of it. I didn't sit around waiting for others to do my work - I just got on with it myself. If that was in any way creative, I am grateful for having had the opportunity and not (hopefully) having wasted it. If I am seen as part of a "grumpy old duo" then so be it. I still feel, however, that what I contribute (both here and elsewhere) is mostly creative - otherwise I should not bother.
Baz
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #48 on: 22:06:11, 25-11-2007 » |
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BALD heads forgetful of their sins, Old, learned, respectable bald heads Edit and annotate the lines That young men, tossing on their beds, Rhymed out in love’s despair To flatter beauty’s ignorant ear. All shuffle there; all cough in ink; All wear the carpet with their shoes; All think what other people think; All know the man their neighbour knows. Lord, what would they say Should their Catullus walk that way
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« Last Edit: 23:24:52, 25-11-2007 by perfect wagnerite »
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #49 on: 22:08:02, 25-11-2007 » |
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How you can put Beethoven and Faure in the same breath as this stuff is completely above me...
I'm not doing so, actually, A  I am saying that their place in the repertoire remains secure and unchallenged, whatever happens to Matthew's piece. It's not as though there's going to be an epiphany in which the scales from our eyes after "six events" and we'll no longer care for anything without buses and till-receipts Upon what basis do you make this claim Reiner? Doesn't every artistic venture deserve that chance, Baz? I am not saying that you yourself are mandated to participate or take any interest at all... but surely those who wish to should be allowed the chance? I was rather disappointed that you made the link to grant applications.. do you have reason to believe some significant element of public money is being frittered away on "six events", and if so, how? In a moment someone will start telling us what Mozart was thinking whilst he was writing his 40th Symphony (of course, not his "Prague" or "Linz" symphonies, but 'is fortiefh), and then we'll know the nadir has been reached (again).  but he has posted on our forum just one subject and we are entitled to question his composition 'technique' in which he requests participation,
"question" yes, "rubbish" no  I can't say I would have rushed to "respond" to most of the tongue-poking that his message has produced, in his place. Blimey, I have had some rough crits* for my work in the past, and I've even had an Anti-Fascist Rally picketing one of my shows - but now I feel glad I didn't have to read what Joe Public would have written, which is considerably more acid  Especially before it's even happened  * "Mozart served in a Broadway sauce is neither tasteful nor wanted in Moscow" sticks in the mind, I even have it on a postcard over my desk...
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« Last Edit: 22:12:03, 25-11-2007 by Reiner Torheit »
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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martle
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« Reply #50 on: 22:10:17, 25-11-2007 » |
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O.K. John, I should come clean. On reading Matthew's flier, I suggested he might like to mention the project here, on the M&S board and at r.m.c.c. For some strange reason I though some here might be both adveturous and supportive enough to engage positively with what he was attempting. Instead he's discovered our grumpy old duo.
Er, Bryn...  Anyway, come on Matthew! Let's hear your rationale. I'm genuinely interested. As for grant applications - Matthew, Baz has helped out with a rather good format. Use it, and good luck!
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« Last Edit: 22:13:58, 25-11-2007 by martle »
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Green. Always green.
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A
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« Reply #51 on: 22:13:44, 25-11-2007 » |
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Oh dear, what a particularly sad pair of jaded critics Baz and A present themselves as here. They really do come across to me as suffering a bad case of jealousy at their lost youth. How very sad.
sad? jaded? jealous at lost youth? grumpy? Good God Bryn , what I am saying is that this project ( at least you aren't calling it a composition) is rubbish. What I did in my youth (and still do, I am not that old thank you very much) is play music and earlier in my life I wrote music... BUT you see that is what it was... and is... MUSIC. I am disappointed that all the so called musicians on this board are taken in by these people who have come up with the silliest con of all time... no work, everyone running around doing silly things like a party game and getting a huge grant as he laughs himself to sleep every night!!! No, I am not sad, or jaded.. just amazed at the gullibility of people I thought were better able to see through such stuff. I see it is because you , for some amazing reason, suggested to him that he should mention it here that you are making such a strange stand!! A
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« Last Edit: 22:15:47, 25-11-2007 by A »
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Well, there you are.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #52 on: 22:14:27, 25-11-2007 » |
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Well, Matthew may still be an undergrad., but he's obviously already mastered the secret of getting himself talked about, which is a useful ability for anyone involved in the arts. Furthermore, he's able to polarise opinion, which guarantees that the talk will rattle on, as it has here already.
Nobody is being forced to take part in the material building exercise, but I can see that a wider cross-section of participants could be in the creator's interests: it makes demands that some will find challenging, but I don't doubt for a moment that he will find volunteers. Who knows what will come of it? Thinking outside the box of music per se and experimenting within the field of performance art certainly isn't going to appeal directly to everybody, but that in itself is not necessarily at cross-purposes with the later creation of music-theatre pieces which work very successfully: I'm thinking particularly of the work of Heiner Goebbels here; the premises behind some of his works may sound convoluted, but when the texts and his music - music which even gained a plaudit from S_S, it should be noted - come together in the conditions he has devised, the cumulative effect is stunning.
For an artist to discuss work in progress is always to court danger, but when a project needs external input, there's no real choice. People are of course at perfect liberty to find the methods by which the creator intends to proceed bizarre: nevertheless, however outlandish the premise may seem at this point, judgement should properly be suspended until there is a product to discuss. To do otherwise would surely be, in the purest sense of the word, prejudice.
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Baz
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« Reply #53 on: 22:16:52, 25-11-2007 » |
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As for grant applications - Matthew, Baz has helped out with a rather good format. Useit, and good luck!
Indeed! But I should advise you to make sure that it has some tangible and credible substance Matthew. "Aims and Objectives" are always useful, especially where the end-product tends towards the ephemeral. Baz
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John W
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« Reply #54 on: 22:18:50, 25-11-2007 » |
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O.K. John, I should come clean. On reading Matthew's flier, I suggested he might like to mention the project here, on the M&S board and at r.m.c.c. For some strange reason I though some here might be both adveturous and supportive enough to engage positively with what he was attempting. Instead he's discovered our grumpy old duo.
Fair enough Bryn and Ron, thanks for not discovering a grumpy trio, I'm not being grumpy and not being prejudiced, just critical/disappointed with the structure or framework of the composition method which has been tried before and clearly, from the responses here, runs the risk that it may not appeal to examiners. Matthew may have had his method 'approved' by the examiners who are keenly waiting to see what he can make of it, if so fair enough. Matthew should know I have little or no musical credentials, not an examiner, but I'm just someone who enjoys music that can be listened to more than once 
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Baz
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« Reply #55 on: 22:23:23, 25-11-2007 » |
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People are of course at perfect liberty to find the methods by which the creator intends to proceed bizarre: nevertheless, however outlandish the premise may seem at this point, judgement should properly be suspended until there is a product to discuss. To do otherwise would surely be, in the purest sense of the word, prejudice.
That is too simplistic Ron! We have no "product" to discuss, but merely an idea. Nobody here is questioning a "product" before it has been produced (that would be prejudice indeed). Some of us are merely questioning the idea, and the proposal for carrying it forward (without any further idea of the outcome). Not to question this kind of thing can result in serious errors of judgement. Baz
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« Last Edit: 22:28:38, 25-11-2007 by Baz »
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martle
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« Reply #56 on: 22:25:39, 25-11-2007 » |
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Not to question this kind of thing can result in serious errors of judgement.
Baz
And yet to question it without understanding its purpose or intention is tantamount to prejudice?
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Green. Always green.
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Bryn
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« Reply #57 on: 22:28:08, 25-11-2007 » |
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And what, pray, Baz, was so "creative" about regurgitating your published work on Bach's temperament here, under a briefly adopted new pseudonym, as if that work was new? No, grumpy, insufficiently noticed, old man you do seem to be presenting yourself as here, to me.
Last night's Vermilion concert at the Sally Army's Regents Hall included a couple of compositions from Paragraph 5 of Cardew's "The Great Learning". These were "Plink" and "Mountain Top Music". It's a pity that another of the compositions from Paragraph 5 was not included, namely "Tube Train Stopped Between Stations":
"No participation in this piece without the following qualifications: In the month prior to the performance a participant must have been in a tube train stopped between stations at least three times, each time listening attentively to the music, without taking notes or making and kind of recording. In the performance he should emulate that music as closely as possible, under no circumstances using any sound that he has not actually heard in a tube train stopped between stations".
Just because Baz's or A's musical perspective is somewhat limited, does not mean that the wider perspective enjoyed by others has no validity.
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« Last Edit: 00:29:14, 26-11-2007 by Bryn »
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Baz
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« Reply #58 on: 22:30:23, 25-11-2007 » |
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Not to question this kind of thing can result in serious errors of judgement.
Baz
And yet to question it without understanding its purpose or intention is tantamount to prejudice? Questioning something is not tantamount to prejudice - it is merely questioning it. Answers have still not been given to any of the questions (is Matthew asleep or something?). Baz
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #59 on: 22:30:56, 25-11-2007 » |
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Maybe Matthew doesn't want to reveal too much about how he's going to use the material his volunteers give him. Maybe he thinks that if they know too much about how the end result will be developed, that might affect how they behave in the early stages. There may be very good creative reasons why he's not telling more about the project. Just because something is participatory, that doesn't make it democratic. If you don't want to participate, you don't have to. But there will be people who will be intrigued, and willing to trust the composer/creator/project leader/insert desired word. That doesn't necessarily mean they're being "had."
It's easy to criticise someone's description of what they're going to do before seeing the end result.
"I'm going to paint a distended anamorphic skull at the bottom of that highly realistic painting." "i'm going to do away with capital letters and punctuation" "I'm going to dribble paint randomly." "I'm going to write a menuet based on throwing dice." "I'm going to write a play where absolutely nothing happens." "I'm going to write a really long poem about how I'm going to become a poet some day."
(Hmm, could this be a new quiz?)
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