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richard barrett
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« Reply #90 on: 13:05:15, 01-07-2008 » |
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early punk was more of a symptom than a proprsed cure. Or (since it's hard to see how music can be a cure for anything) more of a symptom than a response. Of course there were numbers of politically articulate people involved with it (not me though - it took a few years of Thatcher to wake me up to political thinking), but as you say the music was the expression of a critical period in the country's history, in a way that I'd call (see my earlier post) "authentic". I would also say though, and without wishing this to come across as, er, snobbish in any way, that a more comprehensive and integrated response to sociopolitical situations and processes is more suited to a more complex musical idiom, or should I say a musical medium which isn't so "idiomatic", as in something like Luciano Berio's 1977 piece Coro... while even in the intervening thirty or so years it still probably hasn't been heard by as many people as heard Anarchy in the UK within two days of its release, its quality as a thought-provoking musical document remains powerful and "contemporary". Once more, different positions in a diverse ecosystem. Whether something is worth saying, and in a particular way which enhances what's being said, isn't affected by how many people are listening at any given time, and a "response" is by its nature more complex and nuanced than a "symptom". |
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Ruby2
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« Reply #91 on: 13:25:24, 01-07-2008 » |
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a "response" is by its nature more complex and nuanced than a "symptom".
Although much less broadly accessible I should think, certainly in the context you quote. We can all feel symptoms; much lessfewer of us are articulate enough (musically or linguistically) to formulate or possibly even understand an intelligent response. Thereby prone to fear-prokoved snobbery?  |
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"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
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richard barrett
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« Reply #92 on: 14:14:13, 01-07-2008 » |
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a "response" is by its nature more complex and nuanced than a "symptom".
Although much less broadly accessible I should think, certainly in the context you quote. We can all feel symptoms; much lessfewer of us are articulate enough (musically or linguistically) to formulate or possibly even understand an intelligent response. Depends on what you mean by "accessible" though. I don't think there's anything inaccessible about that Berio piece (except the recording is hard to get hold of, and it isn't performed or broadcast very often!), given the time and interest one needs in order to familiarise oneself with what it's doing, and why it's doing it that way, and why it's important to what it's doing that it does it that way. The way in which Coro is thought-provoking and moving (in a way that erases the distinction between them) is not so different from the way a Mahler symphony is thought-provoking and moving. Mahler's "audience" is somewhat larger than Berio's, but in the wider scheme of things there isn't that much difference. The problem is that "accessible" is usually taken to mean "something you can assimilate using familiar and usually passive modes of reception" or words to that effect, which puts "symptoms" at a huge advantage relative to "responses". Soundbites of half-familiar rhetoric can be relied on to work on more people more quickly than considered statements - that of course is how all demagogues work - it's easier to be manipulative using the former. This isn't of course to say I think that all pop music is manipulative (that would after all be snobbish would it not), or, still less, that all complex contemporary composition is a thoughtful response to deeper issues! |
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Ruby2
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« Reply #93 on: 14:41:14, 01-07-2008 » |
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Depends on what you mean by "accessible" though. I don't think there's anything inaccessible about that Berio piece (except the recording is hard to get hold of, and it isn't performed or broadcast very often!), given the time and interest one needs in order to familiarise oneself with what it's doing, and why it's doing it that way, and why it's important to what it's doing that it does it that way. And given the inclination. I can include myself in the people who are often too lazy (or, probably more realistically, have other priorities). The way in which Coro is thought-provoking and moving (in a way that erases the distinction between them) is not so different from the way a Mahler symphony is thought-provoking and moving. Mahler's "audience" is somewhat larger than Berio's, but in the wider scheme of things there isn't that much difference.
The problem is that "accessible" is usually taken to mean "something you can assimilate using familiar and usually passive modes of reception" or words to that effect, which puts "symptoms" at a huge advantage relative to "responses". Soundbites of half-familiar rhetoric can be relied on to work on more people more quickly than considered statements... That's precisely what I was getting at. I don't listen to music completely passively, in that I listen to it rather than letting it wash over me (referring to music that I listen to out of choice) but it's very easy to see that many of the people on this forum such as you, Ian and plenty of others in this discussion are operating at much greater depth in your investigation of what's behind pieces than many (I'll stick my neck out and say most) of us out there. I don't know whether this is a product of interest, intelligence, good memory, speed reading, professional interest or a combination of all of those, but it's impossible to attain all of this understanding (what it's doing, and why it's doing it that way, and why it's important to what it's doing that it does it that way) without substantially more background knowledge than I for one have! I for one am grateful that the arts do work on a spontaneous and subjective level as it means I can still sell paintings to people who don't necessarily know whether acrylics are water soluble or oil based. But then I'm operating on a small-scale commercial level rather than trying to sell progressive abstracts to high end gallery owners.. I might be singing from a different hymn sheet were that the case  |
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"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
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martle
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« Reply #94 on: 14:50:10, 01-07-2008 » |
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I don't know whether this is a product of interest, intelligence, good memory, speed reading, professional interest or a combination of all of those, but it's impossible to attain all of this understanding (what it's doing, and why it's doing it that way, and why it's important to what it's doing that it does it that way) without substantially more background knowledge than I for one have!
Ruby, how do you know? Have you ever heard Coro? It's a very immediate piece (a word I'll use instead of accessible here). He can speak for himself, but I think Richard might agree with me that I don't think you necessarily need any of these things for a work like that to make its impact - its intended impact, I mean, saying what it has to say to one without the necessity of any manner of specialist knowledge in order to apprehend it. I know this to be true, since I introduced Coro to a 20-something friend of mine recently. He has no musical 'knowledge' of any kind, normally only listens to drum & bass and, despite being fairly smart, is generally poorly educated. He now plays it endlessly, has taken to reading Neruda (whose poetry features in the work) - and he certainly 'gets it' as forcefully as I think I do. Which is pretty darned forcefully. |
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Green. Always green.
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...trj...
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« Reply #95 on: 14:53:20, 01-07-2008 » |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #96 on: 14:54:38, 01-07-2008 » |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #97 on: 14:57:35, 01-07-2008 » |
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operating at much greater depth in your investigation of what's behind pieces than many (I'll stick my neck out and say most) of us out there.
That may be, given that some of us devote a large part of our waking lives to such matters, although I don't think that means the music we're talking about (or making) is any more or less "accessible" as a result. People come to an appreciation of music in all kinds of ways, of course, but the way I came to mine of "avant-garde" music (as it was called at the time!) was just by hearing it and getting immediately excited about what I thought of (and still do) as its limitless possibilities. There was nothing in my background that primed me for this experience: no musical training, no "cultured" family background, no tips from schoolfriends or encouragement (or discouragement for that matter!) from teachers... for that reason I've never seen the "difficulty" and I'm convinced that it's put there by the listener and not the music. |
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Ruby2
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« Reply #98 on: 14:59:13, 01-07-2008 » |
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Ruby, how do you know? Have you ever heard Coro? It's a very immediate piece (a word I'll use instead of accessible here). He can speak for himself, but I think Richard might agree with me that I don't think you necessarily need any of these things for a work like that to make its impact - its intended impact, I mean, saying what it has to say to one without the necessity of any manner of specialist knowledge in order to apprehend it. I know this to be true, since I introduced Coro to a 20-something friend of mine recently. He has no musical 'knowledge' of any kind, normally only listens to drum & bass and, despite being fairly smart, is generally poorly educated. He now plays it endlessly, has taken to reading Neruda (whose poetry features in the work) - and he certainly 'gets it' as forcefully as I think I do. Which is pretty darned forcefully. Sorry, I was talking more generally than that, I probably didn't make that clear. I suppose I meant that I may well be able to listen to something and enjoy it on my own instinctive level, but there does seem to be a school of thought that to really get behind something you need to know what the composer's influences were, what came before it, what the political circumstances were etc. That's the aspect that I won't have enough knowledge to understand. Maybe I've read too much into earlier posts (SG).  Maybe I'll order it that piece anyway, I'm curious now. |
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"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
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Ruby2
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« Reply #99 on: 15:10:56, 01-07-2008 » |
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That may be, given that some of us devote a large part of our waking lives to such matters, although I don't think that means the music we're talking about (or making) is any more or less "accessible" as a result. People come to an appreciation of music in all kinds of ways, of course, but the way I came to mine of "avant-garde" music (as it was called at the time!) was just by hearing it and getting immediately excited about what I thought of (and still do) as its limitless possibilities. There was nothing in my background that primed me for this experience: no musical training, no "cultured" family background, no tips from schoolfriends or encouragement (or discouragement for that matter!) from teachers... for that reason I've never seen the "difficulty" and I'm convinced that it's put there by the listener and not the music.
I don't think there's a difficulty at all if we're all happy to accept people's instinctive views as valid. I'm certainly happy to; it's almost all I have (Grade 5 theory seems a very long time ago - what's a diminished 7th again?). |
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"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #100 on: 15:20:34, 01-07-2008 » |
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Someone I know wrote an article about howthe early pop punk bands resembled the early 70s glam and pop-rock bands. This is a very good account of the era...  Seconded. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #101 on: 15:23:24, 01-07-2008 » |
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The way in which Coro is thought-provoking and moving (in a way that erases the distinction between them) is not so different from the way a Mahler symphony is thought-provoking and moving. Mahler's "audience" is somewhat larger than Berio's, but in the wider scheme of things there isn't that much difference. Well, is that quality of being 'thought-provoking and moving' meaningful to a wider audience, to the extent it could be claimed of various manifestations of popular music? Whilst I have some time for Coro, I don't find it as vivid, meaningful, politically relevant, or indeed thought-provoking and moving as I find the Sex Pistols, despite being a trained, professional classical musician with an inclination towards the avant-garde. |
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« Last Edit: 15:25:29, 01-07-2008 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #102 on: 15:28:22, 01-07-2008 » |
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Anyone who thinks it was very revolutionary in reality is a bit of a romantic IMO. Fair enough, but people have short memories and forget that Britain c. 1970-85 was in a pre-revolutionary state. Particularly in the early 70s when the national miners' union won two big strikes, turned the lights off, brought down a government, and the right was so worried it started organising private armies. Thatcher was brought in to put a stop to it. An avowedly conservative historian, Jeremy Black, writes in his book on Britain Since the Seventies that in 1976, capitalism came as close to collapse as any other time in the post-war era in Britain. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #103 on: 15:49:27, 01-07-2008 » |
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Whilst I have some time for Coro, I don't find it as vivid, meaningful, politically relevant, or indeed thought-provoking and moving as I find the Sex Pistols, despite being a trained, professional classical musician with an inclination towards the avant-garde.
Do you think that could be something to do with your own cultural embeddedness rather than something to do with the work itself? That's not a loaded question, btw, just a sort of curious ponder. I find the Sex Pistols rather dull and irrelevant but that could be because of when I was born. Anyone who thinks it was very revolutionary in reality is a bit of a romantic IMO. Fair enough, but people have short memories and forget that Britain c. 1970-85 was in a pre-revolutionary state. Particularly in the early 70s when the national miners' union won two big strikes, turned the lights off, brought down a government, and the right was so worried it started organising private armies. Thatcher was brought in to put a stop to it. An avowedly conservative historian, Jeremy Black, writes in his book on Britain Since the Seventies that in 1976, capitalism came as close to collapse as any other time in the post-war era in Britain. You see I was born after this, and it all seems very strange. |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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pim_derks
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« Reply #104 on: 16:00:15, 01-07-2008 » |
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I find the Sex Pistols rather dull and irrelevant but that could be because of when I was born. Very recognisable to me, harmonyharmony. Personally, I never understood the fuzz about "pop culture". Young people taking all sorts of pills, becoming deaf, living unhealthy lives. It seems all very oldish to me.  |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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