Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #30 on: 16:07:01, 14-08-2008 » |
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Please cite one example from the libretto to substantiate that, reiner.
{...} There is no clear narrative: You've answered your own question, Don B It werbles on amorphously, in a kind of kaleidoscopic cut-and-paste exercise from Holy Scripture that lacks the dramatic structure and incisive story-telling of the Bach or Schutz Passions. I greatly suspect it remains in repertoire because it gives choral singers some busywork - and choruses in Britain don't expect to be paid. In fact, they frequently pay themselves (in the form of Society Memberships) to give performances. But perhaps you are right - perhaps the Messiah's indubitable "warhorse" status, and many exposures to utterly execrable performances, have left me deadened to the work... which I no longer even make polite excuses to avoid. However, my bro is hoping to top-up his pension very nicely from chamber-organ and harpsichord rentals next year (250th Anniv of Handel's demise), and one of the Torheit nephews has nearly outgrown his 3/4-size cello... so I have ulterior motives for the never-ending popularity of what, to me, is penitential puritanical boredom from start to finish Messiah seems very badly to lack the sort of impetus or inspiration Ekzackly so - there is no narrative plot. But they have witch-burnings for people like you or I who say so But great numbers of people truly love this work, and love performing it, viz: THE MESSIAH in performance at the great Handel Commemorative Festival, 1859, Crystal Palace, S London."You always know you're in trouble when there's more people on stage than in the audience!" - (c) R Torheit, passim
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« Last Edit: 16:10:23, 14-08-2008 by Reiner Torheit »
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #31 on: 16:45:59, 14-08-2008 » |
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I never seem to tire of Vltava from Ma Vlast. Same goes for L'Apres Midi. Are these warhorses in anyone's view?
I agree about Vltava (except when it's played as lifelessly as it was at the Proms the other night by the Ulster Orchestra ) - but I'd call it a lollipop rather than a warhorse. I'm not sure how I'd define the difference between the two.
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #32 on: 16:52:28, 14-08-2008 » |
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Perhaps a lollipop's a popular sweetie given to an audience as a reward for good behaviour having sat uncomplainingly through yet another performance of a warhorse?
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #33 on: 17:06:16, 14-08-2008 » |
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there is no narrative plot.
There is a very strong narrative, the incarnation of Christ, his saving death and resurrection and the Christian hope. The audience are expected to be aware of it already, and pick up on the allusions. Just as the readers of Joyce's Ulysses are expected to know the plot of the Odyssey already. And you haven't cited any example of tele-evangelist speak in the words.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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George Garnett
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« Reply #34 on: 17:29:36, 14-08-2008 » |
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I'd call it a lollipop rather than a warhorse. I'm not sure how I'd define the difference between the two.
No need. An Hegelian synthesis is now available in all good tack (and tuck) shops.
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Antheil
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« Reply #36 on: 17:51:07, 14-08-2008 » |
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there is no narrative plot.
There is a very strong narrative, the incarnation of Christ, his saving death and resurrection and the Christian hope. The audience are expected to be aware of it already, and pick up on the allusions. Just as the readers of Joyce's Ulysses are expected to know the plot of the Odyssey already. And you haven't cited any example of tele-evangelist speak in the words. I have to agree with Don Balisio, strong narrative based on, l I think 32 Chapters of the Bible (which, like Ulysses all are expected to know). Never mind this Jenners fellow. You know, you can analyse music too much. And then yor speling goes cos yor brian is overloded. Agree with Tommo re Beethoven 5th. Marbleflugel was playing it one night to drown out the Ghanain Bishops at the Synod (or the row in the flat next door!) and I put it on, got it on now. Fantastic.
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« Last Edit: 17:53:38, 14-08-2008 by Antheil »
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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richard barrett
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« Reply #37 on: 17:57:20, 14-08-2008 » |
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There really is nothing wrong with Beethoven 5. The Faun is also very welcome whenever he turns up. Don't know about Vltava or Metamorphosen though.
What about Stravinsky's early ballets? Le Sacre is never far enough away (especially for those of us who teach composition) to need reacquaintance, Petrouchka always gets on my nerves, Firebird though always seems better than I remember it.
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offbeat
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« Reply #38 on: 20:58:33, 14-08-2008 » |
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I suppose the definition of a Warhorse is a work which is played so often and so well known that it is kind of ignored and taken for granted which is a shame . I find if i dont play certain works but replay after a long period it still comes out fresh - an example recently while driving was performance of Dvorak New World Symphony which because of the time lapse found really enjoyable and realize what a wonderful work this is - so my answer is enjoy these warhorses but not too often !!
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #39 on: 21:11:32, 14-08-2008 » |
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there is no narrative plot.
There is a very strong narrative, the incarnation of Christ, his saving death and resurrection and the Christian hope. The audience are expected to be aware of it already, and pick up on the allusions. Just as the readers of Joyce's Ulysses are expected to know the plot of the Odyssey already. And you haven't cited any example of tele-evangelist speak in the words. Actually the words "there is no narrative plot" are requoted from your own message My reference to tele-evangelists was a pointed dig at Jennens - he utilised that same handy mixture of being "untouchable" through assuming the mantle of religious respectability and devotion (whether true or not)... and exploiting religious feeling for personal financial gain. His correspondence with Handel and others on the subject of libretti is extremely revealing, and I don't discern a very pleasant person behind it (in sharp contrast to Aaron Hill, who clearly cared deeply about establishing a new form of musical drama in English). HANDEL to Jennens, 13 Sep 1744: (writing about BELSHAZZAR, Handel's spelling and punctuation preserved)
I receiv'd the 3d Act with a great deal of pleasure, as you can imagine, and you may believe that I think it is a very fine Oratorio, only it is realy too long, if should extend the Musick, it would last 4 Hours and more. I retrenched already a great Deal of the Musick, that I may preserve the Poetry as much as I could, yet still it may be shortnd. The Anthems come in very proprerely but would not the Words (tell it among the Heathen that the Lord is King) sufficient for one Chorus?
JENNENS to Holdsworth, 26 Sep 1744:
I have been prevail'd with once more to expose my self to the Criticks, to oblige the Man who made me but a Scurvy return for former Obligations; the truth is, I had a farther view in it; but if he does not mend his Manners I am resolv'd to have no more to do with him.
JENNENS to Holdsworth, undated circa Spring 1745:
I shall show you a collection I gave to Handel, call'd Messiah; which I value greatly; & he has made a fine Entertainment out of it. tho' not near so good as he might & ought to have done. I have had great difficulty with him to correct the grossest faults of his composition, but he retain'd his Overture obstinately, in which there are passages far unworthy of Handel, but much more unworthy of the Messiah...
JENNENS to Holdsworth in Italy, 1743:
I hear Handel is perfectly recover'd, and has composed a new Te Deum & a new Anthem against the return of his Master from Germany. I don't yet despair of making him retouch the Messiah, at least he shall suffer for his negligence. nay I am inform'd that he has suffr'd, for he told Ld Guernsey that a letter I wrote him about it contributed to bringing his last Illness upon hi; & it being reported that being delirious with a Fever, he should be damned for preferring Dagon (a gentleman he was very complaisant to in the Opera of Samson) before the Messiah. This shews that I have gall'd him: but I have not done with him yet...
Considering that Jennens is referring to Handel's paralysis in the final quotation, and is proud of having been the one to have brought it on - and has not "done with him yet" - it really comes ill from a supposedly religious man to write in such vicious terms.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #40 on: 21:23:21, 14-08-2008 » |
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This all off topic. Messiah is almost certainly musically over-rated, and Jennens may not have been a very nice man, but the libretto works very well.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #41 on: 21:37:31, 14-08-2008 » |
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Well, I shall see you in the Arena for BELSHAZZAR anyhow Shall it be pistols or rapiers on the next morn in Hyde Park? Meanwhile, thanks to whomever it was that mentioned MA VLAST - I haven't heard it in ages now, and I shall seek old Ma out to see if she's as good as I remember?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #42 on: 21:50:23, 14-08-2008 » |
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As a baroque violinist I end up playing, oh, several Messiahs a year. Every year I dread the repetition. Yet every year I'm surprised again (and again and again) by what a remarkable piece it is. It really is fantastic - sorry if some of you disagree - but instrumentally it's a delight to play, every time. Handel knew what he was doing, and the Messiah is not one of his lazier rehashes.
I hesitate to compare it with the Bach passions (or anything) - they're so different.
Don't know if it qualifies as a warhorse but it's definitely had more than its share of overexposure - I've recently played Pachelbel's Canon (and even the Gigue) a few times, and really enjoyed it. A shame it's forever associated with adverts for chocolates, cars, vertical blinds, etc ...
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #43 on: 22:53:47, 14-08-2008 » |
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A shame it's forever associated with adverts for chocolates, cars, vertical blinds, etc ...
As opposed to the baroque low-tension A=415 penguins which the composer originally specified http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFLmHCr8Bd8
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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