Quite so. Overall, going right back to the initial post, my point is that the actually act of producing music (composing it or performing it; which types of venues are used is not the issue here) and its quality seems to become a secondary concern, almost like a footnote to other activities. I see no sign either from the Arts Council or from Reiner's comments that the issue of producing innovative, challenging, high quality new work in such respects seems a particular concern. If we are going to make everything about 'outreaching', in time what will there be to reach out to others, other than a museum-like culture?

Finnissy once said in an interview that a composer should be paid primarily for composing, teaching should be secondary, and even that composers should not necessarily have to teach at all. This was seen as immensely controversial at the time, but I think he was right. We are getting towards a situation where composers and performers might end up primarily teaching others (I'm referring mostly to higher education here), so that they will eventually become - well, more teachers. Happily, though, many universities are equally concerned with their professors' actual compositional/performance work (and research points are awarded on this basis, in the same manner as for musicological research publications).

But the message I get from Arts Council publications and so on is that issues of accessibility, outreach, winning new audiences, etc., etc. are the central concern, whilst producing important new work is of marginal importance. That is what I think is the wrong set of priorities. From what I can tell, the situation does differ a fair amount between the UK and other countries in Western Europe in this respect. Can't music-making be judged in terms of the quality of the musical results, the level of what is created? That can equally be the case whether writing for the LS or for COMA. A 'proper concert', as I see it, is simply an occasion where music is made, to be listened to. That can be in the South Bank Centre, in a workplace, in a hospital, in a prison, in a school, in a village hall, or wherever. But just because something is played in a factory or a school doesn't make the quality of the music irrelevant. The real distinction is not between what is 'proper' according to some middle class ideals of the 'proper place' for music, but between that which is primarily commercially motivated, and that which has other ideals in mind. The situation becomes complicated because much of what is often referred to as 'low culture' does have to operate according to the former principle. And I do think that is a limiting factor upon any type of music-making.

Re points about the regions, I wholeheartedly agree with Richard there. The musical scene is far too centered upon London, but seems in part a by-product not just of the metropolitan-centeredness of arts organisations and those who receive funding, but more broadly about the whole centralised nature of British society (this is where the federal model in Germany, which in terms of music produces at least to an extent quite diverse ranges of musical production in the different regions, is quite different). As you say, equally true of various other countries as well.

No, I said it should be classified as educational spending.


This rant is based upon a false premise that I have never made, so requires no answer.


Have a look at the links and the text at the beginning of the thread. And I've seen this sort of language in plenty of other Arts Council documents from the past.


Please read the original statement, this was a response to Richard's comment about what some think constitutes a 'proper concert'.


I have never suggested axing Outreach work, that's your invention. I think it should be classified as educational rather than cultural spending. And what on earth are you on about re "dignity"?


I'm quite serious when I say that you should stand back and look at your own comments - the level of ranting was suggested at another place to suggest a drink problem. Now, I don't believe that is the case, but you might be able to make your points rather better if they didn't seem so consumed with hatred and filled with personalised attacks, which is after all directly contravening the rules here.

I understand what you are writing here and I agree with many things you are writing about.

On one hand composer should be composing and not teaching, high class performers should have a ready audience for them, etc.

In reality this is not what happening. In academia in general people are expected to produce result and teach a lot. It is kind of a crazy situation. I think there is a surplus of educated people and they (who are they) can get away with it.

I lived in big cities and now in a very small town. There is a battle for minds and hearts of young people and we are not winning.
There is a big problem with audiences. People are just not coming.
There are many reasons for that:
Many people now are much more busy than before for some reason (even in small towns)
There are a lot of other entertainments available
People go where money are (pop music)
etc etc etc

Local musicians are struggling, trying to make ends meet. There is no help available.
On top of that some international quartets, trio etc behave and demand that local musicians did everything for them and will not give even a crumb to them (will not give them one finger and way too condescending).
May be the Art Concil decided to change their policy because of the declining audiences. It is specially noticable in small town. It hurts me deeply to see empty hall and winners of all sort of competitions play for chairs. Some times the audience doesn't want to come even if they are given free tickets.

I don't like changes myself and I know too little to know what is for the best. I am just concerned.
I understand you very much.

Wrong, wrong, utterly and completely wrong.

And not only wrong - but a slap in the face to every musician who - unlike you - bothers to take the time to do Outreach work.  Sorry to all those of you who do,  but People's Commissar Pace has pronounced that your work is valueless... that is, no financial value is henceforth allocated to it.  You may have thought that you worked in the Arts, but actually you don't.  You are now reclassified as working in Education, and since you don't have PGCE certificates, that means your status is somewhere between the caretaker and the cleaner.

Ian has finally come out and said it - anything done outside the concert-hall is NOT THE ARTS.  Perform in a school, and it's Education.  Perform in a hospital for the terminally ill, and you're working for the NHS.  Perform in a prison (which I've done), and it's the Prison Service.  Perform at Ford's Dagenham (which I've also done) and that's...  well, probably it's Motor Mechanics. 

But it ain't Art.   

It's Muddle Instead of Music.  Thus saith Ian Pace.


That's the SWP way, isn't it?  Bully and shout-down everyone else, in the hope that only your own message will be left visible. Of course, it would suit you most conveniently if your ideas went unopposed, of course, Ian.  Sadly, whilst you persist in writing drivel, I will persist in exposing it as drivel.

Whatever, Ian.  Whatever.

Performances given to the under-18's "aren't performances" (they're "education").  Performances given to the over-65's "aren't performances" either (they're "social services"). 

Janacek's music shouldn't be subsidised by British taxpayers either - make the bloody Czechs pay for it, eh?

Sacred music should be paid for by having a whip-round at their Services.  Why should others be forced to pay for it?

HIP performances can be financially supported by new taxes on tofu, herbal tea, and hemp clothing.  It is utterly bogus to pretend they have a place in Arts Council funding.

Anyone feeling at all poorly should bring a Doctor's Note to the concert, because the cost of subsidy of their ticket will be reclaimed from the NHS.

The little dog laughed to see such fun, and the dish ran away with the spoon.

Write whatever babble you wish, Ian - I won't disturb your fairyland world any longer.

Montana Art concil supports quilt making and things like that.