The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
08:38:31, 02-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Historically-Informed Performance and its Discontents  (Read 936 times)
Chafing Dish
Guest
« Reply #15 on: 00:42:17, 28-09-2007 »

They were never intended to fill big spaces.  It's a repertoire of music written for rich patrons to enjoy at close quarters only.  Where does that leave us?
We obviously need to be replaced by period listeners.
In period buildings  Wink
At period ticket prices, with period habits of talking, eating, milling around, getting into fisticuffs, ogling the nobility, and snoring during the performance?
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #16 on: 00:46:31, 28-09-2007 »

Where do we go with the C14th chanson repertoire?  It was popularly assumed that these were solo songs, supported by instrumental lines (often performed on vielle, rebec, recorder, flute etc).  Yet now ensembles like Gothic Voices have recorded this repertoire entirely a capella.  Which is all well and good...  so what were all those rebecs and vielles and recorders actually being used for, since they appear so often in pictures?  (Of course, it's a worthwhile point that it's a lot easier for an artist to illustrate music going on with some instruments in a picture than by showing a lot of humans with open mouths).
Well, Christopher Page has undoubtedly researched this matter in great detail, and doesn't arrive at his conclusions merely at a whim.

Quote
I got to a Prom last year in which Paul Hillier conducted an Estonian choir singing both Perotinus and Paart on the same programme (and jolly good it was).  But is there any evidence that these highly soloistic lines in Perotin were sung by choirs?  Shouldn't they rather be solo performers, possibly with a larger group of singers on the extended notes below?
Well, is there any more historical evidence you could present for that conclusion than might be presented for it having been sung by choirs? Vocal forces in medieval music isn't one of my specialist areas, but I do know that there more than a few scholars who have investigated it as thoroughly as seems possible.

Quote
There are all kinds of factors here, and Taruskin (with all due deference to him) hasn't identified them all.  Firstly there is the somewhat defiant turf-war stuff, in which the authenticists have laid firm claim to certain repertoire (sometimes merely on the basis of having bought what they claim to be the relevant instruments).  Secondly there is a rather "presentist" counter-claim from the other orchestras that whatever the rights and wrongs,  they are around now, and deserve a chance to read earlier works their own way.  (This leads on into the logical falsehood of "if Bach had only had a Moog he'd have used it").  And yet another (because I don't claim to list them all) is a practical argument that even IF it were historically correct to perform Landini with a counter-tenor, harp and vielle...  those instruments can't be heard beyond the middle rows of the Wigmore Hall, let alone anywhere bigger.  They were never intended to fill big spaces.  It's a repertoire of music written for rich patrons to enjoy at close quarters only.  Where does that leave us?
All those arguments are indeed identified by Taruskin, and in some detail (which is not to say I agree with all his conclusions). And by others since him, as well.


[/quote]
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #17 on: 06:53:06, 28-09-2007 »

Well, Christopher Page has undoubtedly researched this matter in great detail, and doesn't arrive at his conclusions merely at a whim.


I didn't say he hadn't.  I said it threw-up the question of what the instrumental repertoire of the period might have been, particularly in the "soft" music (as opposed to street-music, which was played by different instruments and different musicians).

Could you try, for once in your life, Ian, to be less confrontational in your approach?  Or is this topic one of your man-trap flames like your "Orientalism" topic, in which you have a hidden agenda to entrap and attack?

So far you've copied everything off the back of cd-sleeves and out of Taruskin.  What's your OWN opinion?
Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #18 on: 09:49:21, 28-09-2007 »

Sydney Grew the Elder has a few words to say about the authenticity of ancient music. We especially approve of his emphasis upon the ideal the universal and the impersonal:

The old music is the final expression of the first, or Catholic, manifestation of the Christian religion. Growing out of the Middle Ages, the music is a thing of rapture - the fruit of a passionate conviction, of the long-sustained contemplation of truth as truth was then perceived, and of the ecstatic appreciation of the significance of that conviction. It glows with love, and throbs with spiritual life. In it are the variety, colour, freedom, and stability of Gothic architecture. It is the parallel of the English of the 1611 version of the Bible.

These facts are not yet altogether recognised. Indeed, so little is the character understood of even the period itself from which the music flowed, that some of its recoverers still speak of "the asceticism of the Middle Ages," which had to be destroyed before "the natural instinct of man found expression in a paradise of eternal happiness." I think you may believe that the part of mediævalism which gave birth to music was not the dry and arid part, but the part which from the beginning was already in that paradise of eternal happiness. While the character of the cause of a thing is misunderstood, the thing itself must remain misunderstood still more.

We say the old music is mystical. But we do not mean that it is indirect. In one sense, the word mystical means allegorical: when we have a spiritual subject, for example, that cannot be defined by words or reduced to intellectual ideas, we express it by allegory or metaphor. Thus the conception of the love and unity which subsist between the Soul and its Saviour, also the emotion attending upon a believer's contemplation of this love and unity, are expressed allegorically by naming the Saviour "the Bridegroom." Language here is used to a mystical end. Poetry is very largely mystical, according to this explanation; but music is not.

Nor do we mean that the old music is esoteric, reserved for the understanding of the specially informed, or codified for the information of the secretly instructed. If it were so, it would not be art. The earliest mediæval notation, indeed, is very secret, and even to well-educated modern musicians the notation is as obscure as Assyrian hieroglyphics. The music, on the contrary, is open, and all-revealing to those of us who by nature are in sympathy with it.

We mean when calling the old music mystical, that it is first ideal, secondly contemplative, and thirdly elemental or universal. By ideal I mean pure; by contemplative I mean non-realistic; and by universal I mean impersonal. The art expresses a complete and un-self-conscious surrender of the artist to his subject, and therefore it becomes the subject itself. These descriptions are not easy; you will understand them as you learn to analyse your musical experiences. For the moment, it should be sufficient to add in further explanation merely that a smile or an instinctive gesture is in nature as music of this kind is in art.
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #19 on: 09:58:28, 28-09-2007 »

Well, Christopher Page has undoubtedly researched this matter in great detail, and doesn't arrive at his conclusions merely at a whim.


I didn't say he hadn't.  I said it threw-up the question of what the instrumental repertoire of the period might have been, particularly in the "soft" music (as opposed to street-music, which was played by different instruments and different musicians).
Page (and others) came to very different conclusions on the basis of the (relatively scant) evidence to earlier generations of medieval performers (for example Binkley). One of Page's articles where he discusses the change is his 'The English 'a cappella' Renaissance', in Early Music Vol. 21 No. 3 (August 1993), pp. 452-471. His book Voices and Instruments in the Middle Ages details the reasoning, I believe, but I've only ever skimmed it, and that was a while ago. There's also an article by Page called 'The English 'a cappella' Heresy' in the volume Companion to Medieval and Renaissance Music (a really excellent book with many interesting essays), edited by Tess Knighton and David Fallows. This all bears precisely on the issue of what those instruments in the pictures were being used for. In terms of the question of 'Where do we go with the 14th century Chanson repertoire?', that and other subsequent research seems a good place to start, probably better than off-the-cuff conjecture.

Quote
Could you try, for once in your life, Ian, to be less confrontational in your approach?  Or is this topic one of your man-trap flames like your "Orientalism" topic, in which you have a hidden agenda to entrap and attack?
Well, you might interpret opinions different to your own as being 'confrontational', and would prefer all to agree with you, but I don't see it that way. I do interpret your tendencies to rush into personal attacks in most such situations as confrontational, however.

As far as Orientalism is concerned, that has been a contentious subject, especially in terms of its political implications, ever since it began to be studied, entailing as it does an ideology critique of what otherwise might have seemed relatively innocent approaches to music and the discourse around it. So it's hardly surprising if if would generate a heated debate here, as it has done elsewhere.

Quote
So far you've copied everything off the back of cd-sleeves and out of Taruskin.  What's your OWN opinion?
(Here we go with the personal attacks again). If you are asking what my opinion is on lots of detailed aspects of medieval performance practice, I'm not an expert in that field (are you, or anyone else here?), but I respect the work of those who are. Nineteenth- and Twentieth-Century performance are a different matter. Re Taruskin, it's rather bizarre if you think I merely copy him, having given highly critical assessments of his work in several papers, articles, and forthcoming books. That said, he's an extremely intelligent writer who throws down gauntlets that I believe cannot be ignored, in his writings on historical performance, Russian music, modernism and the wider history of Western classical music. But you were identifying issues which Taruskin supposedly hasn't identified. In the essays in Text and Act, he engages with all the issues you mention, and numerous others. If you want a detailed critique of his conclusions (I have at least 50-60 pages of a detailed critique of that book alone), that will have to wait until I have some more time on my hands.
« Last Edit: 10:19:34, 28-09-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
Guest
« Reply #20 on: 10:12:19, 28-09-2007 »

it threw-up the question of what the instrumental repertoire of the period might have been, particularly in the "soft" music
I've often been vexed by this question, particularly since I don't find Christopher Page's "solution" particularly convincing. His recorded performances are certainly very accomplished, but the scientist in me humbly suggests that all-vocal performance of that repertoire involves more assumptions than vocal/instrumental performance. A few matters which occur to me are:

(a) Page writes of the work he put into devising a suitable constant vowel sound for non-texted voices. Since there are extant musical treatises from the middle ages, one might expect such an important issue to have been mentioned somewhere.
(b) Intonation - can it really be true that singers of the time would have been expected to keep that music in tune without the help of instruments? Somehow I doubt it, especially since intonation was something that theoreticians wrote quite a lot about so it was probably considered important to get it right.
(c) Most contratenor parts are clearly different in shape from the others, one might say less "vocal" in shape.

None of the evidence in either direction is conclusive, it seems to me, and it's still the case that all-vocal performance of mediaeval secular music is mostly a British phenomenon, whatever that might imply.
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #21 on: 10:31:05, 28-09-2007 »

None of the evidence in either direction is conclusive, it seems to me, and it's still the case that all-vocal performance of mediaeval secular music is mostly a British phenomenon, whatever that might imply.
Page himself says that (well, in terms of being English rather than British), speaking of 'a distinctly English force at work in the early music revival', and when outlining what he calls the 'English discovery theory':

It beings from the premiss that English singers performing a cappella are currently able to give exceptional performances of medieval and Renaissance polyphony from England and the Franco-Flemish area because the ability of the best English singers to achieve a purity and precision instilled by the discipilne of repeated a cappella singing in the choral institutions is singularly appropriate to the transparency and intricate counterpoint of the music. From that premiss we proceed to the theory that, in certain respects, and especially in matters relating to accuracy of tuning and ensemble, these performances represent a particularly convincing postulate about the performing priorities of the original singers. ('The English 'a cappella' Renaissance', p. 454)

Quote
(a) Page writes of the work he put into devising a suitable constant vowel sound for non-texted voices. Since there are extant musical treatises from the middle ages, one might expect such an important issue to have been mentioned somewhere.
In that article, however, he mostly deals with the contemporary shift towards a cappella performance, rather than surveying the historical evidence. Does anyone have his other writings to hand - does he really not refer to medieval treatises? Though one often finds in treatises that things were only written down when there was some difference of approach between regions or relatively close historical periods - if a constant vowel sound was a norm for most singing of a period, maybe no-one saw a particular need to write that down, not imagining any singers would think to do otherwise?
« Last Edit: 10:34:03, 28-09-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #22 on: 17:17:54, 28-09-2007 »


(a) Page writes of the work he put into devising a suitable constant vowel sound for non-texted voices. Since there are extant musical treatises from the middle ages, one might expect such an important issue to have been mentioned somewhere.
(b) Intonation - can it really be true that singers of the time would have been expected to keep that music in tune without the help of instruments? Somehow I doubt it, especially since intonation was something that theoreticians wrote quite a lot about so it was probably considered important to get it right.
(c) Most contratenor parts are clearly different in shape from the others, one might say less "vocal" in shape.

I certainly don't know of any theorist of the period who mentions humming or vocalising the non-texted parts.  I wouldn't go so strongly down the path of needing instruments to "stay in tune"... there was certainly a corpus of ecclesiastical music in which instruments probably didn't feature, so if they could stay in tune there, by extension they should have been able to do so in secular music too?   Another related issue is range and "top down aural approach".  Almost all ensemble singers these days will "tune in to the bass line" and ensure they are in tune with that.  But medieval chanson often doesn't work like that, and is frequently for three equally-pitched lines, with no line that has the structural "top-down" function of a "bass line" (which is a phenomenon of a different era).  And in fact, the number of such parts which exploit the bottom fifth of the bass clef (ie below "viola-c") is relatively few...  yet voices could always have "gone there"?  You could hypothesise that this was to keep the untexted parts within the range of stringed instruments?

Of course, we come from an age in which notated scoring is sacrosanct, and woe to the trumpeter who plays a C-trumpet part transposed on his Bb instrument....   but the Middle Ages had no such protocol, and was driven by a healthy pragmatism...  it's very possible that different line-ups were used on different occasions, even by the same performers (who were all expected to be multi-instrumentalists anyhow, and be singers too). We know for certain that vocal music was performed instrumentally - there's the famous case of Kalenda Maya, upon which the two fiddlers improvised to the crowd's approval.

Binkley, amongst others, made the early conclusion that those angular contratenor parts might be instrumental, as they are so unlike conventional vocal music.
Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Chafing Dish
Guest
« Reply #23 on: 20:19:14, 28-09-2007 »

Quote
(b) Intonation - can it really be true that singers of the time would have been expected to keep that music in tune without the help of instruments? Somehow I doubt it, especially since intonation was something that theoreticians wrote quite a lot about so it was probably considered important to get it right.
The non-scientist in you has to sympathize, however, with the idea that the singers had some flexible, intuitive sense of tuning much as modern-day singers who have never studied acoustics.
Logged
richard barrett
Guest
« Reply #24 on: 20:32:19, 28-09-2007 »

Quote
(b) Intonation - can it really be true that singers of the time would have been expected to keep that music in tune without the help of instruments? Somehow I doubt it, especially since intonation was something that theoreticians wrote quite a lot about so it was probably considered important to get it right.
The non-scientist in you has to sympathize, however, with the idea that the singers had some flexible, intuitive sense of tuning much as modern-day singers who have never studied acoustics.
It was just a thought that occurred to me, and it seems to be a leaky one I admit. Far more persuasive is the idea that those people must have been doing something with their instruments (passing for a moment over Hieronymus Bosch's ideas on the subject).
Logged
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #25 on: 20:39:28, 28-09-2007 »

Far more persuasive is the idea that those people must have been doing something with their instruments

Along with the endless mentions in literature of singers accompanied by lutes, harps etc...
Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to: