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Author Topic: Techniques and Aesthetics  (Read 678 times)
increpatio
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« Reply #15 on: 15:14:58, 23-07-2007 »

This is an interesting topic.  On the one hand, if one is given an instrument and is still in the process of exploring the sounds it can make, it makes sense to first investigate the more easily attainable ones first before moving on to more difficult works.

This brings to mind the correspondence between Schoenberg and Busoni, where the former sent the latter his Klavierstucke to see what he thought.  Busoni put a lot of work into getting his head around the pieces, but his first instinct after this seems to have been to re-transcribe the third (which had been the most musically problematic for him) for piano to make it more idiomatic.  (It would be very interesting to compare them, I imagine, though I have only seen an excerpt of Busoni's transcription).  Schoenberg's reaction was rather amusing, indeed (I don't have the book on me at the moment, and the humour value would be lost if I had spell it out).

I recall some solo viola work by Ligeti (his viola sonata I think) where he requested a performer to use the most virtuosic fingering that he could manage.
« Last Edit: 15:17:05, 23-07-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #16 on: 15:22:06, 23-07-2007 »


This brings to mind the correspondence between Schoenberg and Busoni, where the former sent the latter his Klavierstucke to see what he thought.  Busoni put a lot of work into getting his head around the pieces, but his first instinct after this seems to have been to re-transcribe the third (which had been the most musically problematic for him) for piano to make it more idiomatic.  (It would be very interesting to compare them, I imagine, though I have only seen an excerpt of Busoni's transcription).  Schoenberg's reaction was rather amusing, indeed (I don't have the book on me at the moment, and the humour value would be lost if I had spell it out).

Are you referring to the op. 11 #2?  I accidentally bought the Busoni version when I was learning the piece in high school... and was very confused the first time I sat down with a recording!  It's a strange phenomenon - not a "transcription" in the sense of a Liszt organ-to-piano Bach thing, or anything like that, but a recomposition - the sort of thing a particularly intrusive (and bored!) teacher might do to a student's ill-formed attempts.

I recall some solo viola work by Ligeti (his viola sonata I think) where he requested a performer to use the most virtuosic fingering that he could manage.

Could you dig up more about this?  This is fascinating.  What is a "virtuosic fingering"?  Intentionally awkward/difficult?
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #17 on: 15:41:33, 23-07-2007 »

Sounds typical of Ligeti -- he wants the 'effect' of virtuosity, perhaps to the point of absurdity, but doesn't want to go through the effort of engaging with fingering as a composed parameter.

I can think of other pieces in this tradition as well. Nicolaus A Huber's Beds and Brackets is for solo piano, and includes a passage of rather glib chromatic scales across the entire keyboard, but each time he prescribes different fingerings, 1212121212, then 123123123123 then 123412341234 etc. starting and ending with the prescription "Fingersatz frei" (fingering ad libitum, i.e., the most economical or most typical fingering). It ties in nicely with the remainder of the piece, though I don't want to go into it too deeply here. I recommend it especially for your creative juices, Evan. Lots to think about there.

Other works. (Help!) Cantéyodjayâ (Messiaen) -- Webern op 27 (the grandfather of them all, of course, Schumann notwithstanding)
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Daniel
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« Reply #18 on: 15:53:44, 23-07-2007 »

Perhaps slightly different, but I know that Schnabel used deliberately awkward fingering sometimes in his edition of the Beethoven piano sonatas.
 
It seems to be a way of suggesting ways of thinking about the music, rather than overcoming practical difficulties, even if you didn't ultimately end up using the fingering in performance.

Awkward fingering can be very effective for climbing inside a phrase sometimes and seeing new possibilities.
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increpatio
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« Reply #19 on: 16:01:41, 23-07-2007 »

Are you referring to the op. 11 #2?

It might be actually; I really can't recall offhand.

Quote
I accidentally bought the Busoni version when I was learning the piece in high school... and was very confused the first time I sat down with a recording!  It's a strange phenomenon - not a "transcription" in the sense of a Liszt organ-to-piano Bach thing, or anything like that, but a recomposition - the sort of thing a particularly intrusive (and bored!) teacher might do to a student's ill-formed attempts.

Haha, yes, to some extent.  Of course, Busoni took Schoenberg very seriously; such an a transcription is probably better viewed as an attempt by Busoni to understand what Schoenberg was writing; it certainly served this function at any rate (given that Schoenberg had no interest in having it published along with the originals).

Actually, I think I can manage the joke.  Roughly (and inaccurately), Schoenberg replied to the letter accompanying the transcription, including a bar from the original along with a bar from the transcription, circling a note from his, and what corresponded to it, a chord, in Busoni's.  Above his, he wrote "Here he sheds a tear", and above Busoni's "Here he also blows his nose!" 

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I recall some solo viola work by Ligeti (his viola sonata I think) where he requested a performer to use the most virtuosic fingering that he could manage.
Could you dig up more about this?  This is fascinating.  What is a "virtuosic fingering"?  Intentionally awkward/difficult?

Hmm.  I do not know if I'd be able to find out things any better than you can.  I've just double-checked: it was definitely his viola sonata, played by a one Garth Knox.  It is a very musical work, so far as I could see, even without the treacherous novelties (and with them maybe just a little bit more so Wink ).  It contains one movement to be played on one string only, and the others are all to be generally spiced up with sexy fingerings.
« Last Edit: 18:12:50, 23-07-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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trained-pianist
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« Reply #20 on: 16:11:29, 23-07-2007 »

When I first play any piece I often don't get the right character.
The most useful for me is a tempo (if it has metronome mark). I often make mistakes with tempo.
Technical limitations can significantly change character of the piece.

Also often my view on how it sould be played changes when I here great performers. Recently when I heard Sam Haywood I understood my limitations. The tempos were so fast and also phrases so fluid. He had varied touches on the piano. I enjoyed his light touch and flexibility. I wish to hear it from the hall (I was turning pages).
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