That one was Rutland Boughton I omitted to say. Perhaps Mr. Baziron should be warned that the great Oxford English Dictionary does recognize both "knowledgeable" and "knowledgable" just as it recognizes both "judgement" and "judgment." Like him however I prefer the forms with the "e."

Mmm! "Contrapuntal fingering" - now that is an interesting anatomical metaphor is not it?! Those who eschew the use of "contrapuntal thumbs" as a normal means of discourse in the music of Bach can surely be comforted in the knowledge that one obvious reason for writing a Prelude and Fugue in Bb Minor could (surely) only have been positively to demonstrate the utter uselessness of ever using a single thumb! Instead we note therein the obvious and unmistakable axiom that the "normal" method of playing an octave just has to be with the "little" and "index" fingers (even for those with smaller hands).

Baziron     

What amused us was the notion that while fingers are "contrapuntal" the thumbs should - it seems - be less so. It still amuses us, and creates a sense of irony in our mind. Since the thumb is, from a physical viewpoint, perfectly structured as a means of passing underneath the fingers, one might have supposed (continuing Mdm Tureck's metaphor) that it could provide a perfect counterpoint to the fingers. But she seems (from our initial reading) to be denying this. She is, of course, entirely correct in supposing that keyboard players of the 18th century had developed also a "finger-over-finger" method of playing scalic passages. But to denigrate the status of the poor old thumb seems to us rather similar to Ton Koopman's denigration of the heel in pedalling bass lines. Both seem, to us, nothing less than mere "historical fundamentalism" taken to extreme. Apparently God gave us thumbs to use - except in 18th-century keyboard music; and he also gave us heels to use, but with similar proscription. Utter bunk we cry!

As for Mdm Tureck's views on dynamics, they seem to us so confused that we should ask Member Kerfoops if she might kindly provide for our delectation and clarification a bullet-pointed listing of what she considers to be the most salient points arising from the extract.

We thank her in advance and anticipation!

Baziron

I'd be very interested to hear more about this, as well. I can't say as this is something I've really looked into before, but the only text I've come across that even comes close to the subject is Rameau's treatises on harmony, in which he describes the figuration of chordal accompaniments on the piano in terms of the finger actions required by them.

Just a few thoughts on this...

Some pages from Robert Donington's The Interpretation of Early Music are informative:







Additionally, consult http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/empp/Recorded_examples/Artic/ArticBach.html for an interesting example of Bach's own fingering, showing how a finger-over-finger system is still used for scales.

A more modern account of early keyboard fingering systems was provided by Athina Fytika in a 2004 Doctoral Thesis (Florida State University) and it is fully available online (as a pdf) at http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11032004-182217/

Baziron

En passant for those with timers or insomnia, living in other time zones or perhaps just happy to access the iPlayer, there's a Rosalyn Tureck Goldberg Variations on TTN tonight, from 02:16 to 03:44.

I'd be interested to hear if there are any members who don't enjoy Bach - or at least don't view his music as the "greatest" for whatever reason(s).

'Great'. 'Greatest'.