The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
04:54:55, 01-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]
  Print  
Author Topic: Which composer is the hardest to play?  (Read 3371 times)
tonybob
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1091


vrooooooooooooooom


« Reply #75 on: 21:49:34, 07-04-2007 »

I seem to remember José Carreras finding West Side Story virtually impossible...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8a2NfTiBpo
Logged

sososo s & i.
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #76 on: 02:47:56, 08-04-2007 »

My edition is the Philharmonia one but I could follow your examples because it includes all the figures you mention. I love looking at scores, perhaps it's the mathematician in me, and I've enjoyed looking at the piano examples. I'm fascinated by markings such as 6:5 - six notes in the place of 5, I presume (I can picture all the PhD people rolling their eyes at my innocence) - and I wonder how any one can be that accurate when there are other, regular notes going on at the same time.

If you think of such tuplet groups in terms of individual attacks, they can become extremely difficult, especially with more extravagant ratios. But if you think - you have this amount of time to play this group of notes in, they should be even (or if stylised rhythm, they should adhere to the principles of that); if they don't fit, speed them up or slow them down until they do. If they can be accommodated in the right time-period, and they can sound even or at least like a line, then they are correct. Otherwise it would be impossible to play groups such as 77:69.
« Last Edit: 02:55:56, 08-04-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #77 on: 03:32:22, 08-04-2007 »

With the Liszt and Godowsky examples, it's of course (usually) infinitely preferable if that sense of struggle is not communicated in the performance - hence my highlighting of Ian's crucial comment concerning Richter and Feux Follets.

Can't say I agree with this.  For me, the interest in Liszt (and it is considerable, sometimes) is precisely in how the virtuosic elements contradict the canonically "musical" ones (Ian's reference to the repeated chords in Vallée d'Obermann is a perfect example, and I'd certainly rather hear them tearing a fabric rather than merely prolonging a continuity), and in performances where the knuckle-breaking figuration is too easily conquered I rapidly lose interest.  Not to say that the music should only be played by those without the technical means to play it smoothly, of course - merely that I will, in general, prefer interpretive stances that make the fundamental conflict between the two ontologically distinct strands of "material" in Liszt (and Alkan, also a composer in whom I am very interested) clear, rather than automatically subsuming the one to the other.

It's a fair assumption, of course, that Liszt wrote these pieces with the goal of simultaneously presenting and conquering previously unconquerable technical challenges, and that his ideal (and I have no idea whether he was generally considered to have achieved it) was the "smoother" approach; but that's neither here nor there.  And, again, it's not that I don't want to hear the challenges conquered; it's that I want the residue of the process of conquering them to be audible, and made structurally significant.

I think what you are identifying, Evan, is as much a musical issue as a technical issue, though the two are not really entirely separable. If Liszt started to find something too easy, he would find a way of making it more difficult so he wouldn't get bored (hence why Mendelssohn said that it was fine when Liszt played something for the first time; after that he would end up doubling lines in thirds, sixths, octaves, etc.). In a similar way, if things start getting too smooth, players like Horowitz or Cziffra find some way to raise the stakes; suddenly lifting the pedal during daredevil figurations so as to make the sound more brittle and exposed (can be extremely exciting), having sudden surges of dynamics, pushing the tempo forward to near-breaking point, and so on. Horowitz does that in the last section of Vallée d'Obermann, so as to keep the music 'on the edge'. It's a matter of the particular pianst deliberately pushing themselves to the extremes so as to create tension in such a manner. Listen to Cziffra's amazing performances of Liszt's transcription of the Polonaise from Tchaikovsky's Eugene Onegin, in particular a passage in rapid demisemiquavers/thirty-second notes, with almost no pedal at all, and spectacular evenness and clarity. Others would use a moderate amount of pedal, and maybe a greater differentation between the individual notes so as to make some of them sound essentially decorative. Cziffra treats this passage not simply as being about melody and harmony, but makes much of the expressive potential in the type of keyboard figuration itself (so so important in Liszt). Totally brilliant, he can most definitely do it, but the manner of execution adds that tightrope quality which generates tremendous excitement (then his utter lack of any slowing down when it comes to the double octaves that follow pushes the music even closer to the brink). This is not simply virtuosity as opposed to 'making music', the virtuosity itself (and its ostentatiousness) is an integral part of the musical experience.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
trained-pianist
*****
Posts: 5455



« Reply #78 on: 20:46:10, 08-04-2007 »

I find Godowsky fingers so nice for the hand. It is good to cross ones finges in going like backward. May be it involves arm in doing so. I find it therapeudic for my hand to play on the table in front of a computer.
Thank you Ian for posting it.
Logged
ahinton
*****
Posts: 1543


WWW
« Reply #79 on: 08:53:15, 09-04-2007 »

With the Liszt and Godowsky examples, it's of course (usually) infinitely preferable if that sense of struggle is not communicated in the performance - hence my highlighting of Ian's crucial comment concerning Richter and Feux Follets.

Can't say I agree with this.  For me, the interest in Liszt (and it is considerable, sometimes) is precisely in how the virtuosic elements contradict the canonically "musical" ones (Ian's reference to the repeated chords in Vallée d'Obermann is a perfect example, and I'd certainly rather hear them tearing a fabric rather than merely prolonging a continuity), and in performances where the knuckle-breaking figuration is too easily conquered I rapidly lose interest.  Not to say that the music should only be played by those without the technical means to play it smoothly, of course - merely that I will, in general, prefer interpretive stances that make the fundamental conflict between the two ontologically distinct strands of "material" in Liszt (and Alkan, also a composer in whom I am very interested) clear, rather than automatically subsuming the one to the other.

It's a fair assumption, of course, that Liszt wrote these pieces with the goal of simultaneously presenting and conquering previously unconquerable technical challenges, and that his ideal (and I have no idea whether he was generally considered to have achieved it) was the "smoother" approach; but that's neither here nor there.  And, again, it's not that I don't want to hear the challenges conquered; it's that I want the residue of the process of conquering them to be audible, and made structurally significant.

I think what you are identifying, Evan, is as much a musical issue as a technical issue, though the two are not really entirely separable. If Liszt started to find something too easy, he would find a way of making it more difficult so he wouldn't get bored (hence why Mendelssohn said that it was fine when Liszt played something for the first time; after that he would end up doubling lines in thirds, sixths, octaves, etc.). In a similar way, if things start getting too smooth, players like Horowitz or Cziffra find some way to raise the stakes; suddenly lifting the pedal during daredevil figurations so as to make the sound more brittle and exposed (can be extremely exciting), having sudden surges of dynamics, pushing the tempo forward to near-breaking point, and so on. Horowitz does that in the last section of Vallée d'Obermann, so as to keep the music 'on the edge'. It's a matter of the particular pianst deliberately pushing themselves to the extremes so as to create tension in such a manner. Listen to Cziffra's amazing performances of Liszt's transcription of the Polonaise from Tchaikovsky's Eugene Onegin, in particular a passage in rapid demisemiquavers/thirty-second notes, with almost no pedal at all, and spectacular evenness and clarity. Others would use a moderate amount of pedal, and maybe a greater differentation between the individual notes so as to make some of them sound essentially decorative. Cziffra treats this passage not simply as being about melody and harmony, but makes much of the expressive potential in the type of keyboard figuration itself (so so important in Liszt). Totally brilliant, he can most definitely do it, but the manner of execution adds that tightrope quality which generates tremendous excitement (then his utter lack of any slowing down when it comes to the double octaves that follow pushes the music even closer to the brink). This is not simply virtuosity as opposed to 'making music', the virtuosity itself (and its ostentatiousness) is an integral part of the musical experience.
Plenty of good sense here, Ian! - and much with which wholeheartedly to agree.

Best,

Alistair
Logged
John W
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3644


« Reply #80 on: 14:03:27, 15-04-2007 »

Richard,

Yes, there is some rehearsal footage on youtube, with Berstein in his usual foul-mouthed behaviour and Carreras very visibly embarrassed, and angry too I think.

John W

Moderator note: following complaints, I will be editing or removing messages dwelling on the masturbation subject. I suggest members wishing to continue on the subject can exchange private messages, and possibly enjoy that more intimate experience.
Logged
tonybob
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1091


vrooooooooooooooom


« Reply #81 on: 17:46:14, 15-04-2007 »

Richard,
Yes, there is some rehearsal footage on youtube, with Berstein in his usual foul-mouthed behaviour and Carreras very visibly embarrassed, and angry too I think.
John W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8a2NfTiBpo
 Roll Eyes
Logged

sososo s & i.
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #82 on: 17:56:46, 15-04-2007 »

Talking of foul mouths, I knew someone who played in an orchestra under Sir Alexander Gibson once and she had never come across a conductor who swore so liberally. In the concert, they played one piece that ended quietly (can't remember what) and the audience started to clap too early. He muttered the F-word repeatedly under his breath at that moment.
Logged
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #83 on: 18:04:28, 15-04-2007 »

Talking of foul mouths, I knew someone who played in an orchestra under Sir Alexander Gibson once and she had never come across a conductor who swore so liberally. In the concert, they played one piece that ended quietly (can't remember what) and the audience started to clap too early. He muttered the F-word repeatedly under his breath at that moment.
Well, since he had a reputation for giving concerts while drunk that doesn't particularly surprise me. He ruined at least one premiere I know of through this, which is why I don't really feel any compunction about mentioning it in public.
Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
autoharp
*****
Posts: 2778



« Reply #84 on: 21:48:59, 16-04-2007 »

I've dug out Paul Wittgenstein's left hand versions of Chopin Etudes - at least the three I have (Revolutionary in 2 versions + Winter Wind). 2 of them are in "double notes". Makes Godowsky's look like - er - a vicarage tea party.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]
  Print  
 
Jump to: