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Author Topic: The Truth about Absolute Music  (Read 1620 times)
Daniel
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« Reply #30 on: 22:45:15, 19-04-2007 »

I'm with roslynmuse on this one - a delightfully weaving thread in which maybe the destination is less important than the scenery on the way.

Mr. Grew I had to read your post above five times before I could claim to have established any kind of reasonable relationship with it. Now that I have I will say that the image of a herd of horses bolting down the King's road is a rather appealing one to this poor dumb creature.
 
I also think that you are very fortunate in having such a tenacious and right-minded companion as Member Baziron to help you along the way, although I fear that he may be due some disappointment at some stage if he is expecting satisfaction of all his demands.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #31 on: 23:29:42, 19-04-2007 »

I must confess to being somewhat confused and not a little at a loss, bearing in mind member Grew's stated mistrust of music which eschews the absolute, to understand why he should nonetheless cite Scriabin as such a towering genius. Did he not wax quite effusive over Le Poème de L'extase in the other place?

 Since the composer wrote a long rambling poem of the same title, purporting to be the "philosophical programme" for the piece, it must be self-evidently programme music, and thus counter to the principles of the absolute. How then does it escape the opprobrium heaped upon other works which refrain from embracing such exalted status, yielding weakly instead to the need for a programmatic prop?

One might almost fancy it were subjective preference distorting objective appraisal....
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #32 on: 01:41:26, 20-04-2007 »

. . . member Grew's stated mistrust of music which eschews the absolute

This is not correct. "Absolute music" and "absolute standards of taste" are two entirely different concepts which one or two Members have begun to confuse in their minds.

. . . the composer wrote a long rambling poem. . .

We suppose that ramblingness is in the eye of the reader, so to speak. Many might use the term in reference to Paradise Lost or the Prelude.

. . . purporting to be the "philosophical programme" for the piece . . .

Purporting? No we do not think so. Please refer to our recent message in the Scryiabine thread where his brother-in-law explains the true state of affairs:

http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=848.msg20692#msg20692

. . . it must be self-evidently programme music . . .
Self-evidently? No we do not think so. Refer again to the message in the Scryabine thread. The work is in strict sonata form.

One might almost fancy it were subjective preference distorting objective appraisal . . .

Clearly "fancy" is the operative word here!
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Baziron
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« Reply #33 on: 08:39:21, 20-04-2007 »

Quote
..."Absolute music" and "absolute standards of taste" are two entirely different concepts which one or two Members have begun to confuse in their minds.

Sydney Grew
Indeed they have Syd. Now, let me think...I wonder why that might be?

Baz Huh
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #34 on: 08:41:51, 20-04-2007 »

So if a work is programmatic in inspiration, but nevertheless possesses an absolute form, that will be sufficient to grant it absolution?
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Baziron
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« Reply #35 on: 08:54:14, 20-04-2007 »

Quote
...Refer again to the message in the Scryabine thread. The work is in strict sonata form.

from Sydney Grew
Mmm..."sonata form". That sounds almost like the language of a musical analyst, and I can see that I am doing just the right thing in (at this stage) keeping a completely open mind about Member Grew's forthcoming analysis of Shostakovich 8. How is it going Syd?

Baz
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Baziron
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« Reply #36 on: 12:50:16, 20-04-2007 »

Quote
We suppose that ramblingness is in the eye of the reader, so to speak. Many might use the term in reference to Paradise Lost or the Prelude.

from Syd
...Or even (dare we say it?) Shostakovich!

Speaking of which, does Member Grew yet have a date set aside for us in order to read his preliminary analysis of Shostakovich 8? There are still a few dates vacant in my diary, and it would be helpful to know.

Baz
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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #37 on: 15:57:43, 21-04-2007 »

As I understand it, absolute music means instrumental music with no literary connotations?  In other words vocal music is inherently inferior?

We are no experts Don Basil but we are no stiff and stuffy traditionalists. We break with the Oxford English Dictionary on your point. It defines "absolute music" as you will know as "self-dependent instrumental music without literary or other extraneous suggestions."

But we turn to Tovey whom upon this question it is impossible to ignore. In his first passage quoted in message 1 of this thread he tells us about Bach, Mozart, Brahms, Beethoven and words. It will repay your inspection tenfold we think! Then but only after reading that first passage turn to his fourth passage quoted in the same message 1 and take particular heed of the word "merely" in its final phrase.

Then tell us what you think. Does not his force irresistably at once sway one?

Thank you, Syd, for the opportunity to exercise my brain.  I have taken my time to reply so as to ponder the serious matters you raise.  I was not aware of the OED quote, which seems to answer my point.  The answer to my query would appear to be "yes".

Surely the ultimate example of music written merely to express words as Tovey puts it is secco recitative, and I cannot think of any form of music that is more boring, qua music.  (Fortunately it rarely comes in bursts of more than 5 minutes and I can cut it out on the ipod.)

Tovey seems to grudingly admit that vocal music and word setting have their uses,  but clearly thinks that instrumental music is superior.   
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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