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Author Topic: Composers who use Silly Descriptions do themselves a Great Disservice!  (Read 1018 times)
time_is_now
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« Reply #15 on: 22:33:49, 10-08-2008 »

And do Ron and Richard really believe titles are a tiny, almost insignificant aspect of a piece of music? I certainly don't!
What on earth leads you to believe that I might, 'tisnow?  Huh

Analogous to judging a book by its cover, surely?
Perhaps I should have understood more of a distinction between 'title' and 'cover', but I just wanted to check you weren't suggesting that one forms no opinion at all of a book without having looked inside. Wink

(Ed.: That would appear to be a triple negative, Mr Now!)
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Bryn
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« Reply #16 on: 22:54:13, 10-08-2008 »

Well, if it's silly names for pieces of music you're after, how about "symphony", "concerto", "string quartet", (damn it , every schoolboy knows there are sixteen strings involved, let alone all those strands of horse-hair) ... .
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #17 on: 00:27:06, 11-08-2008 »

how about "symphony", {....} every schoolboy knows there are sixteen strings involved

A "symphony" is, of course, a hurdy-gurdy (vielle-a-roue), and was known by that name from the C11th onwards. It's mentioned by that name in the Play Of Daniel (1222 ad, as we know from the carefully dated manuscript).  How silly, not to mention deceitful, it was of rococo composers to advertise "symphonies" in their concerts,  preying upon innocent hurdy-gurdy lovers to con them into buying concert tickets under a false premise - and then playing music without any droning or twanging in it whatsoever.  Truly a Silly Description indeed.

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time_is_now
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« Reply #18 on: 00:31:42, 11-08-2008 »

A "symphony" is, of course, a hurdy-gurdy (vielle-a-roue), and was known by that name from the C11th onwards.
Eh? Symphonies have been known as 'hurdy-gurdies' since the 11th century???

Oh, I did enjoy the wordless chorus in the finale of Enescu's Third Hurdy-Gurdy. Wink
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Bryn
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« Reply #19 on: 00:47:34, 11-08-2008 »

Symphonies.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #20 on: 01:44:40, 11-08-2008 »

...and Yannis Kyriakides he evidently a foreigner from regions Meridional.
I'm not sure what the point is here.  Funny-sounding name?  Is that your problem?

A slight mis-understanding there. We were just elaborating, not criticizing. "Yannis Kyriakides" is quite a nice name, in a foreign sort of way! It is his "Hyperamplified" to which we could never reconcile ourself. Why? Because it is either intentionally obscure, ungrammatical, or entirely meaningless. We love only point, intention, discrimination, sifting, a sense of importance and value.
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Philidor
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« Reply #21 on: 07:24:40, 11-08-2008 »

Yesterday we thought a little ultra-modern music might be nice. We tuned in to "Hear and Now" to listen to the productions of one or two experimental composers! We were hoping to hear novel but complex harmonic progressions and tightly organic things in the best Anglo-Saxon tradition.

Altogether five offerings were advertised, all written by persons with whose names we were unfamiliar. There were "Larry" [i.e. Laurence] Goves, Jonathan Green, Michael Clarke, "Sam" [i.e. Samuel] Hayden, and Yannis Kyriakides he evidently a foreigner from regions Meridional.

But upon seeing the descriptions - or rather nick-names - of their pieces we realized the impossibility of our plan. Rather than waste our time we switched off and found something better to do! One was called "My Name is Peter Stillman. That is not my real name." Another piece was called "Into Movements." A third went under the title "Emmeshed II" [sic]. The next offering was "Schismatics," and the last "Hyperamplified." A dim and dreary catalogue is not that? We mean to say, "Into Movements" - that is the mentality of a six-year-old!

We knew instantly that not one of these five men could possibly be an educated dignified and serious person! But it is a shame that none of them appears to have realized how important it is to awaken a mood of pleasant and intelligent expectation in a prospective audience. Is there nothing better being written that could be broadcast?


I had a similar experience at the Hayward Gallery yesterday. I went along with a friend to see the Psycho Buildings exhibition (pics here). Bits of it I liked very much, e.g. the accompanying Jeppe Hein fountain:

http://www.brightcecilia.com/pictures/sb1.jpg

But the descriptions of the pieces were jaw-dropping, e.g.

Quote
Taxhido Japaneseperson uses fabric and old Evian bottles to create a space suggesting dualistic harmony between viewer and pure form. The juxtaposition of light and old curtains makes us aware of our roles as observer and participant, and skillfully evokes the island of Tashinoko where the artist spent his formative years.

That's a parody but, if anything, the originals are worse. A combination of pretentious, pseudo-intellectual balls, and wildly overblown claims for what, say, a room with smashed up skirting board seeks to achieve.

The best bit of the outing was gaining access to the RFH roof. A helpful Hayward attendant said we could get a bird's eye view of the 'Boats on Roof' installation ("Dave Pseud's skillful combination of water and old car tyres, seemlessly illustrating the relationship between humans, water, leaking concrete, and early twenty-first century consumer capitalism...") from RFH level five, but I penetrated, via an empty staff rest room, onto the roof itself. The views are tremendous. I didn't stay long for fear of being shot eight times as a suspected AQ terrorist about to launch a missile strike on the Shell Centre.

http://www.brightcecilia.com/pictures/sb2.jpg

A further area where stupid, pretentious, descriptions are used routinely is in bad hotels. Cheese on toast becomes 'A mouth-watering union of local cheddar cheeses, tastefully served on fresh granary bread made from hand-ground flour produced by local artisans, dribbled with a choice organic pickle." Oh, and the North London middle classes calling their children 'Oscar' and ‘Ermintrude’.

Why do modern composers, installation artists, hoteliers and young media couples use language in this way? Fear that if they don't the vacuous mediocrity of their 'product' will be exposed?
« Last Edit: 07:55:09, 11-08-2008 by Philidor » Logged
Robert Dahm
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« Reply #22 on: 08:16:27, 11-08-2008 »

...and Yannis Kyriakides he evidently a foreigner from regions Meridional.
I'm not sure what the point is here.  Funny-sounding name?  Is that your problem?

A slight mis-understanding there. We were just elaborating, not criticizing. "Yannis Kyriakides" is quite a nice name, in a foreign sort of way! It is his "Hyperamplified" to which we could never reconcile ourself. Why? Because it is either intentionally obscure, ungrammatical, or entirely meaningless. We love only point, intention, discrimination, sifting, a sense of importance and value.


Surely 'hyperamplified' is equivalent in meaning to 'over-amplified', which indicates to us that the work is amplified too much. It seems in rather poor taste to knowingly amplify something too much, does not it? One should amplify one's work to precisely the level required to articulate the piece maximally - no more, no less.

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Bryn
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« Reply #23 on: 08:37:41, 11-08-2008 »

...and Yannis Kyriakides he evidently a foreigner from regions Meridional.
I'm not sure what the point is here.  Funny-sounding name?  Is that your problem?

A slight mis-understanding there. We were just elaborating, not criticizing. "Yannis Kyriakides" is quite a nice name, in a foreign sort of way! It is his "Hyperamplified" to which we could never reconcile ourself. Why? Because it is either intentionally obscure, ungrammatical, or entirely meaningless. We love only point, intention, discrimination, sifting, a sense of importance and value.


Surely 'hyperamplified' is equivalent in meaning to 'over-amplified', which indicates to us that the work is amplified too much. It seems in rather poor taste to knowingly amplify something too much, does not it? One should amplify one's work to precisely the level required to articulate the piece maximally - no more, no less.



Cor blimey, you sound like Joe's mama, "TURN IT DOWN!"
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #24 on: 08:57:15, 19-08-2008 »

I struggled with a big piece I felt I had to write a while back-still isnt bluddy finished-becuase I stuck with the title. The music didnt cohere around it, and sometimes being a bit slow on the uptake it took me a while to realise that just writing and rewriting dots in the general direction the title would fall away, refine, resurface in another thing.
I mention this becuase I think there's a wider problem in ecology in musicianship, as in other things in modern life, that itself pulls goals away from material. My hunch is that is to do with form-filling, to some extent technology and media, and general quotidian complications. Giving things aparently abstruse or unenticing titles may be a reaction againsty that. I am making a big generalisation so I may  barking up the wrong tree here.
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Arnold Brown
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« Reply #25 on: 09:13:55, 19-08-2008 »

I think he is sort of winding us up, although perhaps more by pushing us into making statements we don't mean ... Is there really anyone here, even hh (Wink), who has never decided not to listen to a piece of music on the basis of an offputting title?
I don't think I've ever made that decision about a piece of classical - although the reverse has probably been true - that I've actively sought to listen to a piece because it had an interesting title. 

We can't avoid the fact that some kind of selection process has to happen to navigate through the vast extent of music available, whether it be recommendation, hearing something on the radio or as arbitrary as not liking the name of something, however silly that is.

That said, who hasn't chosen to buy (or borrow) a book because the title sounded interesting, or a bottle of wine because the bottle or label was nice?  Just as silly I suppose.  Smiley
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Ruby2
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« Reply #26 on: 09:19:15, 19-08-2008 »

A further area where stupid, pretentious, descriptions are used routinely is in bad hotels. Cheese on toast becomes 'A mouth-watering union of local cheddar cheeses, tastefully served on fresh granary bread made from hand-ground flour produced by local artisans, dribbled with a choice organic pickle."
Indeed. At the weekend we bought sandwiches in town and my other half asked me what I'd got.  I read from the label "I have smoked local ham and Emmenthal with vine-ripened tomatoes in a stone-baked Ciabatta."
"Ham and cheese then?"
"Yup."

Oh, and the North London middle classes calling their children 'Oscar' and ‘Ermintrude’.
This is slightly off-topic but I had a very entertaining experience the other day when went to both Waitrose and Morrisons in the same evening. In Waitrose a mother was "berating" a child in the following manner:

Don't do that Tarquin, it's not nice.

When I went in Morrisons, I heard the following.  I kid you not:

Oi!  I said no bitin!
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #27 on: 09:19:35, 19-08-2008 »

More often than not for me, the title grows out of the 'cloud of ideas' surrounding a piece. It can sometimes bear witness to some aspect of the project that may not even be audible anymore. I enjoy Ferneyhough's use of the term 'invisible colours' (though I can never remember who it was who coined the phrase) for titles and I think it's coloured (ahem) the way I think about titles. How much of the 'game' do you want to give away before the audience has heard a note of your music? I wouldn't say I've ever given a piece an 'abstruse or unenticing title' but that could be because I'm too close to the work and don't realise that it may appear so to others, but perhaps I would say that I've occasionally chosen a title that says very little about the actual content of the piece. In fact I'm moving more and more in that direction.

Is there really anyone here, even hh (Wink), who has never decided not to listen to a piece of music on the basis of an offputting title?

I don't think I have... There was a programme in Darmstadt where we looked at the titles and were profoundly depressed. There's nothing worse than an entire concert made up of titles trying to be clever.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #28 on: 10:05:34, 19-08-2008 »

How much of the 'game' do you want to give away before the audience has heard a note of your music?

On the other hand they might well hear the music without knowing the title - on the radio, having missed the beginning, or in a concert, not having a programme. Two further thoughts occur to me:

If I happen to play a recording of something of mine to a visitor I find myself hardly ever saying what the title is, and I find it's very rare for the listener to ask. (Maybe because they already know.)

In improvised music, titles (if used) would only be added at the stage of releasing or broadcasting a recording, but it's happened frequently with FURT, whose music is not completely improvised, that we decide on a title while preparing a composition, have it "in mind" (albeit at the back thereof, there always being much too much else to think about) while performing it and then change it if/when the recording comes out. And in the case of this music, the titles usually give absolutely nothing away about the piece. But maybe they do.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #29 on: 10:09:30, 19-08-2008 »

When I went in Morrisons, I heard the following.  I kid you not:

Oi!  I said no bitin!

And that was spoken to a child? Amazing... when I go to our local Morrisons I am almost invariably the youngest customer there by a margin of thirty years or so. (And I am no spring chicken myself.)
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