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Author Topic: New British Composers - your choice!  (Read 2858 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #30 on: 13:34:44, 15-03-2007 »

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What is wide, the gap or the knowledge?
Oops, John, sorry for the ambiguity there. Well, you could certainly show most of us a thing or two about putting a quiz together, that's for sure.

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The way that some new music festivals are publicised is distinctly unhelpful to anyone who is not closely involved in that world; perhaps, dare I say it, even somewhat threatening, since what Richard describes as "desperate acts of defence against a hostile cultural environment" can, to a potentially interested outsider, appear almost aggressive, defensive and hostile themselves
That's true, Roslyn, but I'm also often irked by a complimentary tendency wherein the music is presented in a patronising and hyperbolic way like the SPNM's "Riot" concert (qv) which as riots go wouldn't ruffle anyone's blue rinse. I think the answer is (as indeed it used to be) not to hive contemporary composition off into a ghetto but to present it unapologetically in the context of its cultural environment, as in the Proms, or indeed the recital programming of musicians like Ian when he has the opportunity.

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I hate to mention the word 'Stockhausen' again, Richard, but you do seem to be agreeing with me ...
I thought we'd sort of agreed that we actually agree on such matters, hadn't we? Now that I've let go of the wrong end of the proverbial stick, that is. Kiss

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all sorts of rather trashy (but very popular) pop song-writers
Like Evan Parker, you mean? Seriously, though, I think it would be interesting to explore what kind of biodiversity goes under the name of "composer". I'm frequently brought up short by the fact that there are people out there (thousands!) who have the same "job description" as I do but whose activities I don't recognise as having anything in common with my own apart from resulting in some kind of audible stuff. Maybe the word "composer" is where the problem lies.

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What would be the basis for excluding them?
I think one should be looking for reasons to include people, not to exclude them. No selection is going in the end to embody an objective decision-making procedure - choosing a group of interviewees is after all a process of "com-position" which says much about the interviewer and his/her priorities. What we're all talking about here is how each one of us might approach the issue. My model, by the way, would be the novelist Alan Burns' book of interviews with his contemporaries (published in 1981, but containing material from some time earlier like the interview with BS Johnson), The Imagination on Trial.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #31 on: 13:44:21, 15-03-2007 »

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all sorts of rather trashy (but very popular) pop song-writers
Like Evan Parker, you mean? Seriously, though, I think it would be interesting to explore what kind of biodiversity goes under the name of "composer". I'm frequently brought up short by the fact that there are people out there (thousands!) who have the same "job description" as I do but whose activities I don't recognise as having anything in common with my own apart from resulting in some kind of audible stuff. Maybe the word "composer" is where the problem lies.

That's the tricky thing. I'm supposing I'm wondering how such a book could be seen to be 'inclusive'. I would agree with you and want to have figures like Evan Parker in, but could see how objections might be raised that only those working outside the 'classical' field who correspond to our particular aesthetic preferences are being allowed.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #32 on: 13:46:30, 15-03-2007 »

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could see how objections might be raised
Since when did you worry about objections being raised to your opinions and choices, Mr Pace? ? ? ? ?

... and what relevance does this "classical field" have anyway?
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #33 on: 13:47:39, 15-03-2007 »

Richard - "I think the answer is (as indeed it used to be) not to hive contemporary composition off into a ghetto but to present it unapologetically in the context of its cultural environment, as in the Proms, or indeed the recital programming of musicians like Ian when he has the opportunity."

Absolutely, I'm one hundred per cent behind you here. In a sense even programmes like Hear and Now are ghettoes, because of the timing (10.30 on a Saturday night? Why not 7.30 on any other evening?) and also because we now have a preponderance of style- or genre-led programming from the BBC.

Sorry, another soundbite between classes, but I'll be back...
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #34 on: 14:09:42, 15-03-2007 »

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could see how objections might be raised
Since when did you worry about objections being raised to your opinions and choices, Mr Pace? ? ? ? ?

... and what relevance does this "classical field" have anyway?

Not claiming any a priori relevance for it, just trying to see how such a list can be manageable and varied. The list I did provide certainly isn't merely made up of my own favourites, as should be clear! I suppose I think that if such a book was to be created, there is a certain responsibility to show even-handedness. But I like your idea of a book akin to the Alan Burns one, though (The Musical Imagination on Trial?). Great book for those who don't know it (if you can find it, it's very rare now).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #35 on: 14:13:58, 15-03-2007 »

Great book for those who don't know it (if you can find it, it's very rare now).
I don't suppose anyone has a copy close enough to hand that they could, erm, carry it in their bag in EC1 this evening? I'd love to see it, even if it was just a glance ...
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ian Pace
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« Reply #36 on: 14:24:57, 15-03-2007 »

Alas not, never owned a copy (read it at the house of one RB). But I see that actually there are quite a few reasonably priced copies on Amazon (just ordered it for £6) - simply search for it there and you'll find it.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
xyzzzz__
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« Reply #37 on: 16:46:42, 16-03-2007 »

"As for your other points: yes, in many ways exchange of information is easier now, but you have to know what information you're looking for, instead of having Radio 3 or intelligent and well-supported concert organisers throwing out ideas in a thoughtful way. And music lives and breathes through performance, not primarily through information exchange. Who remembers Adrian Jack's concert series at the ICA in the 1980s? Why is there nothing comparable in the capital now?"

Never said music lived 'primarily' through information exchange, though talking and thinking does help it in some way...just saying that perharps it isn't all doom and gloom, as Ron was implying. I wasn't around in the 80s but, at least in London, there have been some good series of concerts/events - not sure how it compares.

As for the book and improvisers how about Chris Burn or Simon Fell? both seem to have their feet firmly planted in that improv/composition borderline.
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rumblefish
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« Reply #38 on: 18:34:39, 17-03-2007 »

in response to an earlier point- -i think Dai Fujikura would be allowed in (the one who writes rather arch programme notes)as he's went to secondary school over here.
Ian Pace -i'm interested to hear some Wieland Hoban.
Time is Now- not sure about that sturdy modernist with the same surname as a harpsichordist.Not much 'lift off' as yet.
For me,Michael Bearkley would be in there for his great work at Cheltenam festival.Judith Weir,as well.
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quartertone
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« Reply #39 on: 23:46:36, 22-03-2007 »

I'm also often irked by a complimentary tendency wherein the music is presented in a patronising and hyperbolic way like the SPNM's "Riot" concert (qv) which as riots go wouldn't ruffle anyone's blue rinse.

To be frank, I don't think that orchestral pieces with anti-Iraq War introductions do much ruffling either.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #40 on: 23:58:17, 22-03-2007 »

I'm also often irked by a complimentary tendency wherein the music is presented in a patronising and hyperbolic way like the SPNM's "Riot" concert (qv) which as riots go wouldn't ruffle anyone's blue rinse.

To be frank, I don't think that orchestral pieces with anti-Iraq War introductions do much ruffling either.
That's assuming that the intention was to ruffle, rather than to pose some questions about the possible relationship between what's happening in the world and what a composer does.
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quartertone
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« Reply #41 on: 00:09:48, 23-03-2007 »

I'm also often irked by a complimentary tendency wherein the music is presented in a patronising and hyperbolic way like the SPNM's "Riot" concert (qv) which as riots go wouldn't ruffle anyone's blue rinse.

To be frank, I don't think that orchestral pieces with anti-Iraq War introductions do much ruffling either.
That's assuming that the intention was to ruffle, rather than to pose some questions about the possible relationship between what's happening in the world and what a composer does.

Sure, certainly. I recall the combined impression of title and text leading in a somewhat "ruffling" direction for me, but I could be wrong.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #42 on: 00:15:36, 23-03-2007 »

Judge for yourself: http://furtlogic.com/no.html - this is the full version which was slightly cut for the actual programme.

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Ian Pace
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« Reply #43 on: 00:56:48, 23-03-2007 »

I'm also often irked by a complimentary tendency wherein the music is presented in a patronising and hyperbolic way like the SPNM's "Riot" concert (qv) which as riots go wouldn't ruffle anyone's blue rinse.

To be frank, I don't think that orchestral pieces with anti-Iraq War introductions do much ruffling either.
That's assuming that the intention was to ruffle, rather than to pose some questions about the possible relationship between what's happening in the world and what a composer does.

Sure, certainly. I recall the combined impression of title and text leading in a somewhat "ruffling" direction for me, but I could be wrong.

To be fair, quartertone, I don't think one could read from the programme note or added interview that this work was attempting to actually effect anything concrete in terms of the Iraq War, or try to be 'subversive' (one of the most overused terms, to the point of meaninglessness, in various faux-radical writings about music). Rather it is simply an attempt to respond to the question of what is a socialist composer to do? Even if I don't entirely agree with all the conclusions in that respect, it's still a perfectly legitimate and important question to ask. I suppose the questions will inevitably arise from when a note simply evokes the very subject of the Iraq War in the context of that highly conservative of arenas, an orchestral concert, and is unlikely to change anyone's views one way or the other (not that I'm saying it purports to do so).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
quartertone
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« Reply #44 on: 07:29:20, 23-03-2007 »

To be fair, quartertone, I don't think one could read from the programme note or added interview that this work was attempting to actually effect anything concrete in terms of the Iraq War

Of course not - that's the whole problem with trying to be aware of such matters in one's composing; a piece of classical music heard by very few people will do nothing to change practical circumstances. Richard obviously knows that, but one could equally argue that it won't do anything to change people's perceptions either. Unless the work is as confrontational or provocative as its title, which I don't think it is.
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