The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
11:45:57, 02-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Poll
Question: In the light of 80+ monks & protestors shot by Chinese Police in Tibet over this weekend...
I will consider not attending any of the official Chinese cultural events in the UK this year - 3 (27.3%)
I will not attend any of the official Chinese events in the UK this year - 5 (45.5%)
I will not be influenced about attending Chinese cultural events in the UK this year - 0 (0%)
I have no opinions on this matter - 0 (0%)
I welcome the cultural events and look forward to them - 1 (9.1%)
None of the above (please say what) - 2 (18.2%)
Total Voters: 10

Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: Relations with China  (Read 701 times)
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #30 on: 17:17:17, 10-04-2008 »

I'm just saying that a very large percentage of the deaths attributable to Stalin, Mao and other communist leaders were due to incompetence and so on. Quite rightly, these events are held up as indictment of these leaders, but double standards apply. Compare for example, the Ukranian famine of 1932-33, which led to 2.5-3.5 million deaths, it is widely believed. This occurred when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Empire, and can be attributed to the policies of Stalin's regime (there are some, including Robert Conquest, who argue that this was the result of a deliberate policy of extermination - whilst I don't know a great deal about this, I believe this is very much a minority view amongst serious historians of the period, though). Now this has been much written about and cited to demonstrate the horrors of communism and Stalin's Soviet Union in particular. But compare the Bengal Famine of 1943, in which 1.5-3 million people died. This occurred whilst India was still part of the British Empire, and Churchill was Prime Minister. Churchill, upon hearing of the famine and the pleas for food, apparently responded with a telegram asking, if food supplies were so low 'why Gandhi hadn't died yet'. Certainly there is a case to be made that this famine reached such huge proportions as a direct result of Churchill's actions and incompetence. Yet how often do we find this cited as a case against Churchill? That is what I mean by double standards.
« Last Edit: 17:34:25, 10-04-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #31 on: 17:53:52, 10-04-2008 »

That is what I mean by double standards.

Certainly so.  Another of those "Stalin-was-to-blame" cases concerns the Siege Of Leningrad.  When I was living there in the 1980s, a theory sprang-up amongst quite respectable historians (it was then already possible to critique Stalin, during the "glasnost'" period) that Stalin had purposely under-resourced the defence of the city in WW2,  and had rejected military plans to lift the Siege by the deployment of massive force.  Thus, it was declared, Stalin had intentionally caused the 900-Day Siege, and was therefore responsible for the deaths (both civilian and military) which occurred during the period. (No mention was made of the Third Reich's involvement in the matter, oddly).  But this death-total was then retrospectively added to the tally of deaths for which Stalin was deemed responsible.

There were many vested interests in this matter.  If you had simply died, suffered, or lost your house as the result of enemy action, then it was, well, just tough luck and you got a medal for your fortitude and the right to be in the May 9th Veterans Parade.  But if you came into the category of Victim of Stalinist Repression, you were entitled to some substantial damages - and in some cases, restitution - from the Soviet State.  The second-generation relatives of people living on the Petrogradsky Side were able to reclaim the right to properties from which their relatives had fled.  Perhaps this was right and proper?  But many seemed to end-up in some rather ritzy country properties located behind what had been the German Front Line (drawn-up near to Peterhof - the palace itself was used to billet the Reich's Officer Corps).

As you may know, I'm rarely backward in coming forward to point the finger at Iosif Illiaronovich - but this case was patently ludicrous, and pursued primarily because of personal present advantage.  Nevertheless, the death-toll attributed to Stalin to this day includes the civilian casualties of the Siege Of Leningrad,  and this is clearly - IMHO - a misrepresentation of the facts.

As you say, Ian, it has not always cut both ways.  Count Nikolai Tolstoy waged a long legal battle to get recognition for the "White" patriots who'd fought with the Allies, whom Churchill sent back to Stalin...  knowing full well that they would face a firing squad. The case has been filibustered by the MoD and Tolstoy has lost a small fortune in legal fees...  but no-one will ever admit that Winnie might have blood on his hands Sad
Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #32 on: 18:18:58, 10-04-2008 »

Meantime, by way of illustrating that perhaps things have moved-on slightly in the sphere of sporting collaboration with dubious nations,  here for comparison's sake is a (real) photograph of the England team immediately prior to kick-off against Germany in 1938:



with acknowledgements to my friend Len who posted it elsewhere
Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Turfan Fragment
*****
Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #33 on: 19:28:16, 10-04-2008 »



That's the one (in case it didn't open in RT's post) -- I think anyway.
Logged

BobbyZ
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 992



« Reply #34 on: 21:12:01, 10-04-2008 »

Apparently, The FA claimed it was apolitical and so endorsed the salute out of politeness to the hosts. I would have thought that was putting politics into, rather than keeping it out of, sport. I seem to recall reading in extracts from old memoirs that the  players were extremely annoyed about having to give the salute but some now think that such views were post war revisionism and that they didn't much care either way at the time.

More surprisingly perhaps, England won 6-3 ! This was a return fixture to a game played in London a year or so before and also won by England. Oddly, that game was played at White Hart Lane, home of Tottenham Hotspur the club most closely associated with a strong Jewish following.
Logged

Dreams, schemes and themes
ahinton
*****
Posts: 1543


WWW
« Reply #35 on: 21:40:32, 10-04-2008 »

I'm just saying that a very large percentage of the deaths attributable to Stalin, Mao and other communist leaders were due to incompetence and so on. Quite rightly, these events are held up as indictment of these leaders, but double standards apply. Compare for example, the Ukranian famine of 1932-33, which led to 2.5-3.5 million deaths, it is widely believed. This occurred when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Empire, and can be attributed to the policies of Stalin's regime (there are some, including Robert Conquest, who argue that this was the result of a deliberate policy of extermination - whilst I don't know a great deal about this, I believe this is very much a minority view amongst serious historians of the period, though). Now this has been much written about and cited to demonstrate the horrors of communism and Stalin's Soviet Union in particular. But compare the Bengal Famine of 1943, in which 1.5-3 million people died. This occurred whilst India was still part of the British Empire, and Churchill was Prime Minister. Churchill, upon hearing of the famine and the pleas for food, apparently responded with a telegram asking, if food supplies were so low 'why Gandhi hadn't died yet'. Certainly there is a case to be made that this famine reached such huge proportions as a direct result of Churchill's actions and incompetence. Yet how often do we find this cited as a case against Churchill? That is what I mean by double standards.
It's interesting that you should mention this. I rather fear that, even in the present era wherein the Briddish Empaa has long since become established as an entity of the past and the areas of pink on mid-20th century maps can now get looked at by some young people who then wonder why they were part-Communist(! - I made that last bit up), the prevailing view of Winston Churchill (especially in Britain itself) seems to remain rather doggedly rose-tinted if not actually dewy-eyed; there is no obscuring that for the most part he was a fine and successful British leader, at least during WWII, but that doesn't make him perfect, let alone even begin to excuse what you just wrote about (although I note your use of the word "apparently" and assume from it that you are not entirely certain of the validity and authenticity of that text). To quite what extent the blame for that famine can be laid specifically at Churchill's door I do not pretend to know, but the rather abject-sounding one-sidedly positive view of him does neither British history, nor those who unquestioningly subscribe to that view nor even Churchill himself any great favours.
Logged
martle
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6685



« Reply #36 on: 21:45:17, 10-04-2008 »

Apparently, The FA claimed it was apolitical and so endorsed the salute out of politeness to the hosts.

Well, that certainly resonates with certain recent pronouncements from the IOC, the British government (and others) concerning the Beijing Olympics.  Roll Eyes Thanks, BZ  Wink
Logged

Green. Always green.
BobbyZ
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 992



« Reply #37 on: 22:27:00, 10-04-2008 »

I don't think the prevailing view of Churchill among historians is in any way rose tinted, the consensus seeming to be that he was wrong on just about everything throughout his career apart from the sheer bloody mindedness of his wartime leadership. And even in that his attempts to micro manage military matters were often disastrous. But his achievement in managing to hang in there long enough to get the US involved against Hitler still counterbalances anything else in the popular consciousness. How much that achievement can be put down to one man I'm not knowledgeable enough to know, there must have been other capable people around in the war cabinet I would have thought ?
Logged

Dreams, schemes and themes
ahinton
*****
Posts: 1543


WWW
« Reply #38 on: 22:38:44, 10-04-2008 »

I don't think the prevailing view of Churchill among historians is in any way rose tinted,
I wasn't referring to "the prevailing view...among historians" but to that in
the popular consciousness.
I realise now that I should have clarified that by saying as much.

Anyway - back to the present day and Relations with China, methinks...
Logged
David_Underdown
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 346



« Reply #39 on: 11:42:42, 11-04-2008 »

Churchill, as First Lord of the Admiralty was also largely responsible for the whole Dardanelles/Gallipoli mess in WWI, on the other hand it was also the Admiralty that pushed for the introduction of Tanks (originally officially called HM Landships! The name tanks was invented as a cover, they were supposed to be water tanks being transported to the trenches, to deceive the Germans), they being far more used to armour, and once he realsied what a disaster Gallipoli had been he took a front-line role in the trenches, in an apparent attempt to make some sort of amends.  He was also responsible as I recall for an earlier British adventure in Iraq, using "air policing" as a cheap way to keep the tribes in order.  i.e. the RAF flew around and dropped bombs on anything that looked vaguely threatening.
Logged

--
David
IgnorantRockFan
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 794



WWW
« Reply #40 on: 12:06:04, 11-04-2008 »

He was also responsible as I recall for an earlier British adventure in Iraq, using "air policing" as a cheap way to keep the tribes in order.  i.e. the RAF flew around and dropped bombs on anything that looked vaguely threatening.

You forgot to mention how keen he was on gassing the Kurds.

Logged

Allegro, ma non tanto
MT Wessel
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 406



« Reply #41 on: 00:58:29, 12-04-2008 »

Sad
« Last Edit: 00:47:42, 16-04-2008 by MT Wessel » Logged

lignum crucis arbour scientiae
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to: