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Author Topic: Are Mozart Operas Too Long? (cont from the "Embarassing Confessions" thread)  (Read 802 times)
Peter Grimes
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« Reply #15 on: 11:45:55, 14-09-2007 »

Karl Bohm kept things moving in Mozart's operas, especially Cosi Fan Tutte.
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Soundwave
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« Reply #16 on: 12:22:07, 14-09-2007 »

Ho!  I confess that I find Cosi and Idomeneo rather overlong.  Figaro is, for me, perfect.  The widely ranging, clever plot is permanently satisfying with the many discoveries in its byways that you only find after many performances.  I think that musically and dramatically it is a perfect theatrical work and I would class it in the top half dozen of all operas.  For some reason, and the fault is probably mine, I can't stand the Don.
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Daniel
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« Reply #17 on: 12:24:09, 14-09-2007 »

An elderly Bohm conducting Cosi at ROH in the early eighties was one of the highlights of my not terribly extensive opera-going life - so much achieved with so little movement!

In my case I have never found Cosi or Don Giovanni too long, but I certainly have with Figaro, a problem that lies most certainly in a shortcoming in my attitude to it rather than at the source.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #18 on: 12:37:11, 14-09-2007 »

Karl Bohm kept things moving in Mozart's operas, especially Cosi Fan Tutte.

Unfortunately Bohm's response to Cosi's length was often to make swingeing cuts - particularly evident in his 1974 live recording from Salzburg (which in many other respects is a really fine performance), but in his earlier Decca recording too.  I'm not sure that playing around with the structure really helps.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #19 on: 14:56:18, 14-09-2007 »

An elderly Bohm conducting Cosi at ROH in the early eighties was one of the highlights of my not terribly extensive opera-going life - so much achieved with so little movement!

Indeed yes, Daniel! Lilian Sukis and Brigitte Fassbaender as Fiordiligi and Dorabella. Perfect stuff, although I seem to remember Hermann Prey coming to the front of the stage and adopting 'heroic recital style' for his arias before deigning to return to the action presumably(?) with the agreement of the director (John Copley).

Very early 1980s, I think. Late 1979 in my case.   
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ernani
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« Reply #20 on: 17:35:15, 14-09-2007 »

As many above have noted, it really does depend on the performance. I always thought La Clemenza di Tito a dreary and overlong work. But I saw a fantastic performance recently at ENO with Paul Nillon, Emma Bell and Alice Coote that really changed my mind on this piece. It can work the other way too. I think Verdi's Luisa Miller is a superb work. However, I made the mistake of going to a dreadful concert performance at the EIF a few years ago. Granted that concert performances can be difficult, but this was awful, with provincial singing and a conductor who clearly had little or no understanding of the idiom or affection for the piece. Just goes to show that there are no 'indestructable' operas  Wink
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #21 on: 20:22:16, 14-09-2007 »

Just goes to show that there are no 'indestructable' operas  Wink

"Nothing is foolproof - for the truly talented fool."
(c) Emo Philips


Fair play indeed, Ernani!  I think there is some good stuff in LUISA MILLER, but it needs to be performed sympathetically... it was written to show-off super voices in a snazzy piece of staging...  and if those elements are compromised, the end result will inevitably suffer. 

About "indestructible" operas, I almost entirely agree with you...  with the exception of Puccini.  His work is so thoroughly "composed" to the nth degree that almost nothing remains left for the interpreters except to do what's written on the page.  He's almost immune to quirky productions...  yes, you can move TOSCA to Mussolini's Italy (pace Jonathan Miller) or SUOR ANGELICA to Puccini's Italy (his own aunt had an illegitimate child and was sent to a convent) but the action remains the same.  I have this in my mind as I saw BUTTERFLY (or CIO-CIO-SAN as it's called there) in Kiev at the Ukrainian National Opera last weekend.  The singers were not poor, but instead horrifically miscast... a coloratura soprano sang the ill-fated heroine, and a tenor who would be very attractive in Monteverdi sang BF Pinkerton.  Somehow the music survived both this, and a wretchedly static and uninvolved production with tatty scenery and fivepence-ha'penny costumes.

Back to Mozart... I now do solemnly call upon anyone here present, who knoweth of any impediment by which IDOMENEO may not be joined with the term "most stultifying Mozart opera, with a plot about nothing".  [Runner-Up - BASTIEN & BASTIENNE, which succeeds in being stultifying in a mere 45 minutes (incl spoken dialogue)]
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Daniel
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« Reply #22 on: 14:01:19, 15-09-2007 »

An elderly Bohm conducting Cosi at ROH in the early eighties was one of the highlights of my not terribly extensive opera-going life - so much achieved with so little movement!

Indeed yes, Daniel! Lilian Sukis and Brigitte Fassbaender as Fiordiligi and Dorabella. Perfect stuff, although I seem to remember Hermann Prey coming to the front of the stage and adopting 'heroic recital style' for his arias before deigning to return to the action presumably(?) with the agreement of the director (John Copley).

Very early 1980s, I think. Late 1979 in my case.   

Yes, that's the one, I could only offer a vague guess at the year I'm afraid.

The clarity of the ensemble is still very clear in my memory, the performance seemed so nimble yet full of gravitas. That was the only time I ever saw Bohm and he had an almost god-like presence it seemed. (And thanks for the reminder of Hermann Prey's wide-boy behaviour  Cheesy)
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George Garnett
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« Reply #23 on: 14:33:58, 15-09-2007 »

I've just dug out my programme of that 1979 Bohm Cosi to see if it says anything about whether he made any cuts on that occasion. There is nothing specific but the timing is given as 19.30 to 22.50 with a 25 minute interval which sounds to me more or less the full thing, give or take five minutes (?)

The programme also contains the rather startling (to me) information that this was a revival of the first ever Royal Opera House production of Cosi Fan Tutte from 1968. Now, I know that Cosi was famously overlooked in the nineteenth century as being the silly flippant one, not serious enough to bother with, but even so, 1968?!  Shocked
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martle
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« Reply #24 on: 16:12:29, 15-09-2007 »

...whereas I see that Glyndebourne produced it, conducted by Fritz Busch, in its first ever season in 1934!
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #25 on: 16:44:51, 15-09-2007 »

The programme also contains the rather startling (to me) information that this was a revival of the first ever Royal Opera House production of Cosi Fan Tutte from 1968.

When Graham Vick staged MAGIC FLUTE at the Bolshoi Theatre (cond Steuart Bedford) for the Mozart 250th Anniversary recently,  it was the first production the work had received in the Bolshoi Theatre since 1898 Sad   The night I went to Vick's show I think the Queen Of The Night was the lady who had last sung in 1898 Sad(
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
selika
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« Reply #26 on: 19:44:26, 16-09-2007 »

With regard to the length of Mozart's operas, Reiner, I think an awful lot depends on how quickly the performers pass on the baton - applause after every musical number can do terrible things to the length (and SEEMING length) of a performance, and letting the recit sag is just as bad. For Zauberflote and Entfuhrung, it's equally important to snap the dialogue back and forth, no long pauses unless they're wanted for dramatic effect (e.g. Tamino's trial of silence). The size of the theatre is a contributory factor, it's much harder to keep the thread taut in a large house like the ROH or the Coli than in a smaller one like Glyndebourne or the Leeds Grand. I saw a Cosi at the Coli not too long ago, where the conductor (sorry, can't remember who) was razor-sharp in picking up the recit as soon as the preceding aria had finished, crashing through applause where necessary. It kept up the tension and shortened the performing time dramatically, whereas at the latest ROH series the otherwise immaculate Colin Davis allowed applause after every number, and the whole thing felt so slow, too slow.

The cut bits... It's worth bearing in mind that all the Da Ponte operas are habitually performed with cuts nowadays. Ferrando usually loses "Ah, lo veggio" unless the tenor has a cast iron constitution, the boys likewise lose their Act 1 duet, and the recits before the Act 1 finale and "Fra gli amplessii" get trimmed. In Don Giovanni, the Leporello/Zerlina duet nearly always goes (the late lamented Opera Factory performed it some years ago), along with Masetto's recit which ties into Giovanni's subsequent account of his adventures. And of course in Nozze, Marcellina and Basilio often lose their arias. Usually I think the cuts are a good idea, especially the Figaro arias which hold up the action just when we need to motor on, although when we get a really good Basilio I sometimes wish he could have the aria (like the sublime Alan Oke at the Coli earlier this year, and I would like to hear John Graham-Hall do it once - I remember Ryland Davies bringing the house down with it for WNO some years ago).

Ottavio... An interesting article in the Glyndebourne programme some years ago suggested that Ottavio has something in common with Yeletsky. Both gallantly stand aside to give their troubled ladies some space and let them sort themselves out, when what the ladies really need is someone who'll sweep them off thier feet and take charge. It's too late for Yeletsky at the end of the opera, but maybe - depending on the interpretation - Ottavio will get enough courage to tell Anna to stop shillyshallying. I've seen Ottavio played as everything from dumbcluck (that awful production from Belgium at the Coli which preceded the even worse Bieto one) to grave, ageing senatorial type (the Peter Hall production at Glyndebourne). I think it's important that he is given dignity and substance as a counterweight to Giovanni. He's actually more forward-looking in some ways: Giovanni uses a sword, Ottavio the more modern pistol. Ottavio's the one who eventually decides to call in the authorities, though whether he'd have a case which would stand up in court is a matter for conjecture (he might have stood a better chance if Leporello hadn't just escaped). We don't need him to be comic relief, Leporello's already doing that.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #27 on: 22:06:45, 16-09-2007 »

it's equally important to snap the dialogue back and forth, no long pauses unless they're wanted for dramatic effect (e.g. Tamino's trial of silence). The size of the theatre is a contributory factor, it's much harder to keep the thread taut in a large house like the ROH or the Coli than in a smaller one like Glyndebourne or the Leeds Grand. I saw a Cosi at the Coli not too long ago, where the conductor (sorry, can't remember who) was razor-sharp in picking up the recit as soon as the preceding aria had finished, crashing through applause where necessary.

I caught Wyn Davies (now there's a hugely under-rated conductor, IMO) doing a FLUTE at ENO a while back and he blitzed on through, and quite right too...  it can all too easily become a self-congratulatory luvvy-fest.

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Both gallantly stand aside to give their troubled ladies some space and let them sort themselves out, when what the ladies really need is someone who'll sweep them off thier feet and take charge.

I agree that Yeletsky does so - I'm unconvinced by Ottavio's abilities to do so.... he wavers and werbles, and that absurd aria really shows he hasn't got what it takes...  all mouth and no trousers.

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Ottavio's the one who eventually decides to call in the authorities, though whether he'd have a case which would stand up in court is a matter for conjecture (he might have stood a better chance if Leporello hadn't just escaped). We don't need him to be comic relief, Leporello's already doing that.


Yes, but what "authorities" is he calling?  In the C18th this would have amounted to summoning a constable (a missed opportunity by Da Ponte for some yokel buffo buffoonery along the lines of Dogberry and Doggerell).  This strikes me as trying to hunt-down Fantomas with a peashooter?   One of my favourite versions of the "Giovanni" story is THE ROCKY HORROR SHOW,  where "Brad Majors" is Ottavio...  when he and the girlfriend he's supposedly "chaperoning" are being stripped to their underwear by an Extraterrestrial Transsexual and the crew of his ship, prior to being used for sexual experiments,  Brad tries to comfort Janet with the words "We'll play along with them for now, and pull our aces out when the time's right". That's Ottavio for me - a weakling weighing 98 lbs, who gets sand in his face when kicked to the ground Sad   I agree, Ottavio isn't comic in the "low comedian" way that Leporello is funny...  it's either something closer to bathos, or even tragic, depending how you play him and those around him.  Essentially, he's a cuckold - the Don has "had" his girl (or gotten a lot nearer to it than Ottavio ever did, at least), and whether he's a figure of fun or not is very much a matter of your own point of view.

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-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #28 on: 00:06:49, 18-09-2007 »

I've said it before, but I don't think Mozart was a natural operatic composer.

In order to create successful operas, you need to have an understanding, and appreciation of, drama.  And drama is what WMA's operas tend to signally lack.

I find 'Figaro' painful to listen to...an endless A stream of 'nice' melodies, stretching on into infinity.  Fine for about an hour (at most), but then I get fidgety.  The last Covent Garden production was a real ordeal to stand through, I found....

And I'm afraid I find his opera seria terminally dry....though I'll grant you that Idomeneo finally catches fire when Neptune's statue makes its contribution.  Grin

As for the Flute.....I always tend to drop off after the initial scene-setting.  Though it does contain some fine music.

DG has a great conclusion (I do like the 'vice punished' bit at the end), some lovely individual arias and not much else.  It's no flawless masterpiece and it would be foolish to claim it as such.

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