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roslynmuse
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« Reply #91 on: 18:04:48, 20-02-2007 » |
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Well quite, but there's more too it than that: gut strings, wooden flutes (even then!) and the actions on the brass instruments were quite different. And being conducted by Norrington doesn't necessarily mean faster tempi.
Until recently (?20 years ago?) the then principal flute of the RLPO played on a wooden flute - and a lovely sound it was too. |
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tonybob
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« Reply #92 on: 18:04:59, 20-02-2007 » |
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I've got a 'period' Tchaik. 4 on this label - takes a lot of getting used to; mainly as the brass is weaker than we are used to thes days. Until recently (?20 years ago?) the then principal flute of the RLPO played on a wooden flute - and a lovely sound it was too. that's lovely! |
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« Last Edit: 18:07:42, 20-02-2007 by tonybob »
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sososo s & i.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #93 on: 18:18:39, 20-02-2007 » |
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Principal flute in the Sydney Symphony was playing on a wooden flute when I lived there (so at least until 2001) - that particular matter isn't necessarily to do with period performance. On the other hand not using a Moyse-style vibrato on the flute for music written before his teaching methods became so prevalent would be another matter.
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tonybob
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« Reply #94 on: 18:22:58, 20-02-2007 » |
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Principal flute in the Sydney Symphony was playing on a wooden flute when I lived there (so at least until 2001) - that particular matter isn't necessarily to do with period performance. On the other hand not using a Moyse-style vibrato on the flute for music written before his teaching methods became so prevalent would be another matter.
I agree, but orchestral players using wooden flutes are, surely, in the minority? |
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sososo s & i.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #95 on: 18:40:13, 20-02-2007 » |
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Principal flute in the Sydney Symphony was playing on a wooden flute when I lived there (so at least until 2001) - that particular matter isn't necessarily to do with period performance. On the other hand not using a Moyse-style vibrato on the flute for music written before his teaching methods became so prevalent would be another matter.
It's interesting how vibrato on some wind instruments is acceptable and on others not - Ollie, in the UK the preference for clarinet sound over the last few decades always seemed to be no vibrato - the Thea King (Frederick Thurston) influence? But it seems to creeping back in now, and I must admit I like it (if it doesn't draw attention to itself!) On double reeds it also seems to be used, but the flute has always (as you say, post-Moyse) been the most guilty of the "all-purpose" vibrato, a la operatic sopranos and string players. Any thoughts about why this should be? |
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #96 on: 18:52:21, 20-02-2007 » |
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We had here Emma Johnson with a concert a few years ago. There are many people who love her playing. To me her sound was not as good as other clarinet players are producing. She played Brahms here. I don't know if she uses vibrato or not, I just did not like her style and tone.
It is between us. I know why should not criticize too much. I just want to know people's opinion.
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autoharp
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« Reply #97 on: 19:56:51, 20-02-2007 » |
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Norrington did Mahler 1 at a prom - can't remember when (18 months ago). not period instruments but a refreshingly different approach.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #98 on: 20:33:24, 20-02-2007 » |
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roslyn, certainly in the last few (or even not so few) decades vibrato on the orchestral clarinet in most countries has been basically a no-no. There have been a few exceptions - the late Jack Brymer sticks in my mind for one solo in the LSO/Abbado recording of Strauss' Don Juan where he gives a long note a gorgeously appropriate tremble. Reginald Kell was a particularly fine exception - his Brahms quintet with the Busch quartet is an absolute classic. He apparently started using vibrato while playing in the Covent Garden orchestra from 1934 and at first didn't make any friends doing it. But his fellow wind principals (Leon Goossens being one) helped him stick at it. And then there was a rehearsal of Tristan with Furtwängler, who for no apparent reason, stopped the orchestra, pointed to me and said, 'What is your name?' My first thoughts as I collected myself were - 'Here we go again!' I replied 'Kell', spelling it out letter by letter. 'Then, Mr Kell', said Furtwängler, 'I would like you to know, you are the first clarinettist I have heard who plays from the heart'. (Aw. Isn't that nice?  ) Brahms's clarinettist Mühlfeld is also supposed to have used vibrato and it sounds rather lovely with Kell using quite a bit and the violinist Busch not much vibrato, but plenty of portamento. Vibrato is quite useful in helping the sound to carry, on voices and string instruments as well as woodwinds. You could consider the analogy of repeated punches instead of continuous pressure - the former gives a certain result more effectively for a given amount of effort! I do use it a bit myself when my colleagues are getting a tad loud and I don't want to get lost. (Although my usual philosophy in such matters is 'if you can't hear yourself play softer...') Er, sorry, I've drifted a bit. Anyone want to start a thread on historical woodwind performance? |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #99 on: 21:19:56, 20-02-2007 » |
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A Neumann box set came out last year and has some wonderful things in it... Expensive place, this board! |
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Rob_G
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« Reply #100 on: 22:18:37, 20-02-2007 » |
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I'm just getting into Gielen's 7th i downloaded last night, it really is a fine performance; his take on the B Major 'sunrise' music in the first movement is something special, just the tone he gets from his brass is different too. Great performance.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #101 on: 22:27:46, 20-02-2007 » |
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Thanks, Ollie, for the detail in your post. I remember reading somewhere that Brahms called Muhlfeld "Fraulein Muhlfeld" on account of his sweet tone. My first encounter with the clarinet sonatas was the classic de Peyer/ Barenboim recording - it's years since I've heard it, but I seem to recall that he adds a bit of "warmth" here and there too. I do like it, particularly on long held notes which crescendo; there is a tendency for the pitch to sound as though it's getting flat without a touch of vibrato (unless you have a pedal attached to your mouthpiece!  ) |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #102 on: 23:25:16, 20-02-2007 » |
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Funny, that was also my first recording of them and I was glad to finally see it on CD not so long ago even though my tastes have changed somewhat in the meantime... My favourite Brahms sonata recording which actually exists is probably Dieter Klöcker with Claudius Tanski on BMG but I'm rather hoping that when I finally get around to recording them with Ian we'll be able to get them sounding like we think they should sound! But yes, De Peyer had no problem with a bit of vibrato here and there and frankly I don't see why anyone should - it's part of the clarinet sound in nearly all its performance traditions so really it's that corner of the orchestral world where it's verboten that's out of step. I'm afraid the IRCAM pedal only bends the notes down so it wouldn't be any help on crescendos! Of course there are other ways around that particular problem |
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Stevo
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« Reply #104 on: 09:49:34, 21-02-2007 » |
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Just idly wondering... Is there a better all-round Mahlerian than Claudio Abbado? If there is, I haven't heard him.  |
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