George Garnett
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« Reply #75 on: 17:07:16, 08-07-2008 » |
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There are a few old bows here and there but are very rare and most are in museums. There's a very well-known one in the Ashmolean from 1721. Everyone refers to it as "no.19" because that's how it's labelled in the case. Googling "Ashmolean No. 19 bow" comes up with this which may or may not count as one for Baz's side of the argument. ... but actually the opposite happens with modern concave bows - the more you tighten those, the straighter they become. You know I had a very long hard think about that when I tapped it out because a small voice from memory was trying to tell me just that. But I foolishly dismissed it on the grounds that if it's tighter it ought to be, er, no hang on ... if it's shorter then it ought to be ... Don't mind me, I'll work it out.
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« Last Edit: 17:11:39, 08-07-2008 by George Garnett »
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increpatio
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« Reply #76 on: 22:03:39, 08-07-2008 » |
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Fascinating, and tremendously exciting thread this is! Googling "Ashmolean No. 19 bow" comes up with this
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thompson1780
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« Reply #77 on: 23:17:46, 10-07-2008 » |
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John,
Many thanks for separating out the stands of the bow!
Now, where were we?
Is it possible to simultaneously sound 4 strings at the start of a chord on a modern set up? Yes, but the pressure required would mean this is only really suitable for loud chords. Also tricky regarding tone, and has huge difficulty for the rest of the note. In practice, not worth bothering about.
Is it possible to simultaneously sustain the sound of 4 strings on a modern set up? No. Sorry if I'm wrong, but there are limits! Disgusting noise would come out if you tried.
Is it possible to simultaneously sustain the sound of 3 strings on a modern set up? Yes, although as Ruby says, there's the problem of the middle voice coming out too much. One slight complication is that the higher strings sound brighter and are more easily picked up by the ears, so you can weight the chord to the lower strings to balance things out a bit - but the middle string will always sound just that bit too loud. (More of the bow-hair is in contact with the string at the same pressure as at least one of the other strings.)
And what is possible on a genuine baroque bow? I'll have to leave that to strina.
And what is possible on that bow from Baz's article? It seems simultaneous sounding at start and throughout 4 part chords. Although I have to question the simultaneous start to 4 parters. To do this would require pressure downwards to get contact with all 4 strings before lateral movement. At speed this is almost impossible - hence (I believe) how in the music clip the chords sometimes start slightly spread and then sustain together.
That's a load of questions about what is possible. Then there are others?
What is authentic? Much of this thread so far - which is almost turning into an "oh yes it is oh no it isn't" pantomine.
What is desirable? Whether spread is authentic or not, I don't particularly like it. The multiple sounding of notes at the start of a chord inherently adds a rhythmic aspect which can 'get in the way' of the music. The one I find really distressing is when 4 part chords have the voice in the bottom note of the chord. The practice of spreading upwards a 4 part chord only to immediately spread back down to get to the bottom voice just has too many sounds involved! I believe some Russian players approach this by just starting at the top and ending with the dominant voice - but then that sounds peculiar when amidst bottom up chords.
For me, minimal spreading is the key.
Any other points?
Tommo
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« Last Edit: 15:21:45, 14-07-2008 by thompson1780 »
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #78 on: 15:05:46, 14-07-2008 » |
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Is it possible to simultaneously sound 4 strings at the start of a chord on a modern set up?
It's an interesting question. I finally found the example I was looking for... here's Handel in GIULIO CESARE. Look at the Viola-da-Gamba part of the second number on the page (ie the 3rd system): http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0001/bsb00016911/images/index.html?id=00016911&fip=217.10.38.39&no=1&seite=62How do we believe that should be interpreted? Spread? If so, then how? PS I presume reason behind the odd score layout (which is Handel's own) is that Handel has an ensemble of "voluptuous" instruments on-stage in the Egyptian camp - harp, a notated (!) theorbo part, etc. The pit orchestra is on the bottom staves.
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« Last Edit: 15:11:07, 14-07-2008 by Reiner Torheit »
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #80 on: 11:08:20, 20-07-2008 » |
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Although his bowing is a model of best practice, the intonation was rather too accurate to be credible
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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thompson1780
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« Reply #81 on: 23:20:40, 20-07-2008 » |
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I thought he was clearly a student of the French school. He-hon-he-hon Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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thompson1780
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« Reply #83 on: 12:01:52, 21-07-2008 » |
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Incidentally, I was talking to a viol da gamba player last night, and he suggested that even by reducing the tension of his bow strings, he would not be able to play a 4 part chord. He can just about manage 3 strings on his 6 string (consort) instrument, and you might conceivably get 4 on a 7 string french (solo) instrument.
That seems to leave Reiner's 4 part chord in a solo gamba still unsolved. Sorry.
Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #84 on: 12:06:29, 21-07-2008 » |
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Hm. You say unsolved; I would say it points pretty conclusively in the direction of one of the possible solutions (that of spreading it), no?
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #85 on: 12:33:34, 21-07-2008 » |
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Hm. You say unsolved; I would say it points pretty conclusively in the direction of one of the possible solutions (that of spreading it), no?
It would certainly be my conclusion, yes. I was interested to see (in that particular piece) that Handel is using the Gamba double/treble/quadruple-stopped throughout to fill the string harmonic texture... yet leaves the viola with single notes. My guess is that he is after a specific timbre effect (especially given the exotic line-up in use)? I'd assume that by this date the 6-string consort instrument has already fallen from professional use (although might well have been found in domestic music-making), and a 7-string French-style instrument is intended (although the bottom string isn't deployed here anyhow).
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #86 on: 12:54:52, 21-07-2008 » |
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In any case, simultaneity is by no means a given in so much repertoire so late in the historical record... even solo piano recordings mid 20th century show some quite alarming cases of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing (or knowing and not giving a damn...) I'd be thinking that for a substantial majority of music history absolutely simultaneous attacks would have been regarded as at best a special effect and not necessarily a tasteful one at that...
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thompson1780
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« Reply #87 on: 13:31:20, 21-07-2008 » |
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Hm. You say unsolved; I would say it points pretty conclusively in the direction of one of the possible solutions (that of spreading it), no?
Well, I'm personally with you on that one. But proof is an entirely different matter, especially when sought after by dogged members of this community. I suppose the only way we'll ever prove or disprove this one is to ask Bach when we meet him (or ask Richard Dawkins to ask God to let us know when they meet... ) Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #88 on: 13:37:03, 21-07-2008 » |
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dogged members of this community. Oh THEM. I suppose the only way we'll ever prove or disprove this one is to ask Bach when we meet him (or ask Richard Dawkins to ask God to let us know when they meet... ) Failing that, Handel... (which on the other hand is a little more practical because I think there's a slightly better chance of him being where I'm more likely to end up...)
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #89 on: 13:45:33, 21-07-2008 » |
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Failing that, Handel... Or failing that, Marin Marais. The French have a specially-designated region with their own chefs, cheeses and wine-cellars... although it's extremely difficult to get a white chilled to the right temperature, they say And the Bresse Bleu goes runny...
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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