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Ian Pace
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« Reply #375 on: 22:01:12, 19-07-2007 » |
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Ultimately I agree with Evan, one takes it and enjoys it according to personal subjective judgement which no-one else can dictate. I felt the Member Grew's post was attempting to dictate, hence my intrusion. Apologies for an unclear initial post...
Well, as should be clear from my various responses, I do not share Member Grew's interpretations of various of Stockhausen's pieces; but are you (and Evan) really saying that dealing with how the piece works in sound as being about nothing more than 'personal subjective judgement'? Do sounds not have some objective reality? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Biroc
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« Reply #376 on: 22:01:58, 19-07-2007 » |
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Don't get me wrong Ian, I appreciate anyone's right to express their opinion. I merely thought that in this instance, Member Grew adopted a rather unnecessarily patronising tone...
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"Believe nothing they say, they're not Biroc's kind."
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #377 on: 22:08:29, 19-07-2007 » |
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Don't get me wrong Ian, I appreciate anyone's right to express their opinion. I merely thought that in this instance, Member Grew adopted a rather unnecessarily patronising tone...
There is a very serious danger to which various people have succumbed on this messageboard - specifically that of taking Member Grew thoroughly seriously......  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Al Moritz
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« Reply #378 on: 22:09:45, 19-07-2007 » |
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Al, you are a more eloquent writer than I...that is indeed what I meant. I think it is an odd thing to attempt to "hear Schumann or ballet" in a Stockhausen piano piece. Ultimately I agree with Evan, one takes it and enjoys it according to personal subjective judgement which no-one else can dictate. I felt the Member Grew's post was attempting to dictate, hence my intrusion. Apologies for an unclear initial post...
No apologies needed, but I do apologize for not being careful in treating what you wanted to say. In agreeing with Sidney's statement I implied, by not making a disclaimer otherwise, that I also agreed with his reading of your post. I will respond to HH's last post later. |
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Biroc
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« Reply #379 on: 22:12:57, 19-07-2007 » |
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Don't get me wrong Ian, I appreciate anyone's right to express their opinion. I merely thought that in this instance, Member Grew adopted a rather unnecessarily patronising tone...
There is a very serious danger to which various people have succumbed on this messageboard - specifically that of taking Member Grew thoroughly seriously...... Perhaps so Ian...I'll blame the bottle of Barolo...  |
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"Believe nothing they say, they're not Biroc's kind."
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Al Moritz
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« Reply #380 on: 22:13:11, 19-07-2007 » |
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Don't get me wrong Ian, I appreciate anyone's right to express their opinion. I merely thought that in this instance, Member Grew adopted a rather unnecessarily patronising tone...
There is a very serious danger to which various people have succumbed on this messageboard - specifically that of taking Member Grew thoroughly seriously...... On the other hand, Member Grew's posts do not need to be wholly dismissed in cases they do contain one or two valid points. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #381 on: 22:25:13, 19-07-2007 » |
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There is nothing wrong with wanting to discuss compositional processes in Stockhausen's work if that lights one's fire. The sidelining of what can be heard in Stockhausen's music (and, by implication, the patronising sidelining of those who approach it on that level), in favour of the elaborate procedures made into a fetish all of their own, is mystification pure and simple, as I'm sure I've said elsewhere in this thread. It is a way of rendering the music the exclusive property of an elite. Even comments dismissing discussion of the sonic result as being about 'how good it makes me feel to listen to' are, alas, of a similar nature. I agree, but so is the assumption that wanting to discuss compositional processes can only be a matter of 'light[ing] one's fire', isn't it? And before you say anything, I'm not trying to be petty. For the record, while I sympathise with hh's frustration I'm not sure that it's feasible to want a discussion in which everyone talks about what interests them with no spillage into debate about the relative merits of such different approaches. But we're all grown-ups and we should be able to express opinions even on the latter subject without being so confident in our own views as to put other people off from contributing. I hope these sentiments are in the spirit of what hh meant even if not the intention. I've followed this thread with great interest, and it's taught me a lot - more than most other threads on these boards ever have - a lot of which has been about specifics of Stockhausen's compositional practice. That doesn't mean I don't then go away and think about how it relates to the sounding result, and I'd like to imagine that others who talk about the techniques also are aware of other aspects, even if it's not what they feel they have explicit things to say about. I think that's more or less what Evan meant? |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #382 on: 22:30:57, 19-07-2007 » |
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Well, as hh says, we should be able to discuss this music however we want to and members should not try and attack or censor others' preferred mode of discourse (I hope you would maintain that position if a discussion was, say, devoted to Stockhausen and masculinity, hh). What I'll ask, then, in terms of a mode of discourse I find interesting, is what seems a recurrent issue but which I don't think has been raised directly as such: do members think the majority of Stockhausen's elaborate processes do directly affect the sonic results and the perceptions gained thereof, and if so, could anyone elaborate on how they think this is the case?
Also, in general why do we think that so much attention is paid to the techniques in the work of Stockhausen and others?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #383 on: 22:39:44, 19-07-2007 » |
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By the way, there is a rather interesting thread going on currently on Stockhausen at r.m.c.c., examining a question I haven't seen discussed before, here. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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time_is_now
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« Reply #384 on: 22:43:25, 19-07-2007 » |
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By the way, there is a rather interesting thread going on currently on Stockhausen at r.m.c.c., examining a question I haven't seen discussed before, here. The decline of Stockhausen's reputation and his increasing inaccessibility to the general public? I did try to raise the subject in a New Notes article last summer. It's always been a bit difficult to get extended discussions going on the spnm forum, though, which would be the obvious place for responses to such articles ... |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #385 on: 22:44:12, 19-07-2007 » |
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Thanks t_i_n for moderating my ranting and raving  (I hope you would maintain that position if a discussion was, say, devoted to Stockhausen and masculinity, hh).
I think so Ian. If I found something personally offensive I might go off on one (as I did about sex vs. chocolate) but if something just didn't interest me, I don't think that I'd address them. That's not to say that I believe that posting on these kinds of mbs is in effect a room full of people talking to themselves (which is the way that my proposed 'ideal' situation would inevitably lead) but I also believe that a single thread can sustain a handful of different ideas which interact and cross-pollinate. Also, in general why do we think that so much attention is paid to the techniques in the work of Stockhausen and others?
KS seems to be interested in overarching techniques much more than, for example Boulez. In the works from (I think) Gesang to Aus den Sieben Tagen there's this concentration on almost making the process the focus of the piece as much as possible. This foregrounding of technique is quite rare in a composer IMO. |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #386 on: 22:59:06, 19-07-2007 » |
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I think so Ian. If I found something personally offensive I might go off on one (as I did about sex vs. chocolate) but if something just didn't interest me, I don't think that I'd address them. That's not to say that I believe that posting on these kinds of mbs is in effect a room full of people talking to themselves (which is the way that my proposed 'ideal' situation would inevitably lead) but I also believe that a single thread can sustain a handful of different ideas which interact and cross-pollinate. Well, do you not think there's an important place for asking what an ill-defined term such as 'spirituality' means, or what the relationship is between techniques and results? They clearly have generated quite a bit of discussion in one way or another - why shouldn't the thread involve that as well as simply discussing the techniques/processes themselves? FWIW, I've actually found Sydney's posts some of the most interesting on this thread (along with Al's writings on Stockhausen elsewhere), not least because he seems one of the few people who has gone away and actually listened to the music in some detail during the course of the thread. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #387 on: 23:05:17, 19-07-2007 » |
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OK, there's an important place for asking the question but probably not for aggressively pursuing that question. If people want to talk about that aspect then they should. I don't think that I ever said anything to the contrary (feel free to contradict me with quotations!) but it's not something that I think I can currently define in the manner that I'm using it. Your questions did actually make me think about that and make me more circumspect about my use of the term. not least because he seems one of the few people who has gone away and actually listened to the music in some detail during the course of the thread.
Sorry, but that's just patronising and offensive. No need to get snooty. |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #388 on: 23:11:09, 19-07-2007 » |
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OK, there's an important place for asking the question but probably not for aggressively pursuing that question. OK, I think we simply differ on what is perhaps 'aggressive'; I just see such things as rigorous rather than personal. not least because he seems one of the few people who has gone away and actually listened to the music in some detail during the course of the thread.
Sorry, but that's just patronising and offensive. No need to get snooty. It's not snooty, it just reflects a greater interest in perspectives that take the sounds as their starting point (which in no sense need rule out questions of technique). And for all I strongly disagree with the majority of his views (which makes me think - Member Grew, if you are reading this, I am interested to know your views on one Heinrich Schenker, some of whose views, save for his total dismissal of all non-Germanic music (which would include Scriabin, I believe) do not seem a million miles from your own?), I do find that Sydney's posts in general serve to shake up plenty of easy assumptions, which I think is no bad thing. |
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« Last Edit: 23:18:52, 19-07-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #389 on: 23:18:46, 19-07-2007 » |
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What I thought was snooty, patronising, offensive and insulting was the way that you assumed that the majority of posters were not going away and listening to the music in some detail.
Just because people weren't sharing their thoughts on this process does not mean that it didn't happen.
We obviously have a different conception of what we want to get out of these message boards Ian. I am hoping to 'meet' people who share common interests but also to pool ideas and enthusiasms. I'm not sure I can incorporate a concept of 'rigour' into this approach and, while I try not to take these things personally, it does sometimes come across as a bit aggressive.
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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