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Biroc
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« Reply #420 on: 23:15:43, 20-07-2007 » |
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I simply note that the dissonance/consonance patterns are so at odds that the gesture itself (ie. the affect) is quite a differrent one. The notated rhythm seems to me all that the passages have in common.
The Stockhausen link I'm not even discussing here, though.
Also, I edited the above to say semitone appoggiatura instead of suspension/retardation
So we agree? |
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"Believe nothing they say, they're not Biroc's kind."
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #421 on: 23:19:59, 20-07-2007 » |
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Although of course, what Bach chiefly meant to Schumann was an ideal of purity, which is hardly what Bach meant to Bach (as it were) 'Johann Sebastian Bach did everything - he was a human being through and through' - Schumann (1832) 'The proper appreciation of Bach, for instance, requires experience that youth cannot have, and the same is true even of Mozart.' - Schumann (1838) 'I save myself again and again with Bach, and derive joy and strength to work and love' - Schumann (1839) 'What art owes to Bach, is to the musical world hardly less than what a religion owes to its founder' - Schumann (1840) Schumann described some choral and original works of Bach, together with Beethoven's late string quartets, as 'on the extreme boundaries of human art and imagination thus far attained'. He also wrote to a friend in 1843 that the two greatest influences on his work were Bach and Jean Paul, 'which you would probably notice without my point it out to you' On what particular basis do you ascertain that Bach to Schumann was chiefly 'an ideal of purity'? Certainly his most obviously Bach-inspired works, such as the various fugues for piano, pedal piano, and organ, are hardly very 'pure', let alone the accompaniments he wrote for the Bach's solo string works. He did once hold up both Bach and Beethoven as an antidote to 'sentimentality' in a letter to one colleague, but I wouldn't see that as necessarily implying purity as the alternative. However, there is one letter of 1840 in which he says 'the whole of the so-called romantic school (of course I have the Germans in mind) are much closer than Mozart was to the music of Bach; indeed they all know his work thoroughly. I too make my daily confession to his lofty one, and strive to purify and strengthen myself through him.' But that form of 'purification' needs to be taken in light of his other comments; certainly his Bach-inspired works are lavish, gothic and sometimes somewhat bloated. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #422 on: 23:36:33, 20-07-2007 » |
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Er, would it perhaps be a thought to kick off a 'Bach and Schumann' thread at this point? I was hoping to learn a bit about Stockhausen...
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #423 on: 23:42:54, 20-07-2007 » |
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Thanks for that Ian...indeed, I was vaguely aware of all that...wish I could scan/post p;iccies in to support my inane points, but that's certainly a nice link between Schumann and Schumann at least...  Actually, I only scan when necessary - in that case I simply downloaded from one of the free scores pages linked to on the Schumann Wiki, blocked off the section in question from the PDF, pasted it into Paint, saved it and put it on photobucket. With much music out of the public domain this can be done. Though not with this excerpt from near the beginning of the Koncert-Allegro mit Introduction Op. 134  I don't know absolutely every work of Schumann, but do know most, and can't find another example of Schumann using the French Overture pattern on a sustained basis. Which suggests to me that he would have been very aware of the link between Op. 13 and Op. 82. A different type of link might be made between the Prophet Bird and the second section of Der Königssohn Op. 116 |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #424 on: 23:47:59, 20-07-2007 » |
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Er, would it perhaps be a thought to kick off a 'Bach and Schumann' thread at this point? I was hoping to learn a bit about Stockhausen...
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #425 on: 23:49:22, 20-07-2007 » |
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Er, would it perhaps be a thought to kick off a 'Bach and Schumann' thread at this point? I was hoping to learn a bit about Stockhausen...
Fair point - John, if you're reading, would it be possible to shift the relevant posts onto a thread of that title? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Biroc
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« Reply #426 on: 23:50:33, 20-07-2007 » |
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Er, would it perhaps be a thought to kick off a 'Bach and Schumann' thread at this point? I was hoping to learn a bit about Stockhausen...
Good, let's talk about Telemusik. I have no idea why I like it, always have, but I do...don;t think there's a process-on-the-surface aspect to it...just like the sounds and their juxtaposition...what do you think Ollie? |
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"Believe nothing they say, they're not Biroc's kind."
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Al Moritz
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« Reply #427 on: 09:29:43, 21-07-2007 » |
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KS seems to be interested in overarching techniques much more than, for example Boulez. In the works from (I think) Gesang to Aus den Sieben Tagen there's this concentration on almost making the process the focus of the piece as much as possible. This foregrounding of technique is quite rare in a composer IMO.
So also in the earlier works you strongly perceive overarching processes. While I concur with them being important in Aus den Sieben Tagen, where are they in Kontakte, Momente and Gruppen for example?He did say “processes” – “making the process the focus of the piece”. I suppose he might well have meant things auch as the famous 'sound that becomes a rhythm' in Kontakte Sure, this is the first thing that I mention in my essay on Kontake, Electronic Music after quoting the composer and the Kurtz biography: In one passage of KONTAKTE, at the transition between Structures IX and X, the procedure of creating timbres from rhythms seems to be roughly "visualized" in a reverse way. A moderately high-pitched swirling sound gradually slows down in a dramatic manner to finally result in a rhythm of single "pops", strongly reverberated, which then flow, when translated to different pitches, into a short imaginary "bongo solo".or the flinging of a chord around the room in Gruppen – I don’t hear that as “technique”. passages where for me Stockhausen is clearly giving us a glimpse of a technical strategy in a fairly unadorned state, something that does contribute to the perception of the whole work for me. Yes, it does indeed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I hasten to add. The tools he was coming up with then were awe-inspiring stuff (as were the pieces) and I don't mind being taken on a tour of the toolbox.
Neither do I, in particular when it relates to passages where the connection between “technique” and aural experience is immediate. |
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« Last Edit: 10:51:04, 21-07-2007 by Al Moritz »
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Al Moritz
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« Reply #428 on: 10:29:27, 21-07-2007 » |
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[…] but it's also something to do with perspective I think - bringing the substructure to the surface might also point to the fact that elsewhere it's below the surface, thus drawing the listener's attention in that direction so that he/she might "listen for" (and hear) the deeper structural connections and processes in unsuspected places. This has a lot to do with my hearing of Stockhausen's music (but also something like Turangalîla where "discovering" obvious connections between the themes leads one to imagine that there might be more subtle connections too, which of course there are. While you talk about thematic connections, this reminds me that thematic development, and concomitant harmonic development, are very much processes. So is development of a fugue, for example. Thus, I am not actually sure if I can agree at all that in Stockhausen “the processes are immanent in the sound to a greater extent than with many if not most other composers”, as you said earlier. I do not hear such overarching processes in Gruppen for example, even though one thing leads to another in the game of action-reaction. A lack of overarching processes, of course, is not inherent in gestural language, as opposed to melodic/thematic language. To my ears, your own Tract strongly develops on gestural processes, and so does your orchestral Vanity, most evidently in the second part, but also in the first and third parts, if one listens just a bit beneath the surface. I listened to the work again yesterday, and I loved it. While I do not hear in all of Stockhausen’s gestural music overarching processes (spanning at least substantial parts of a work), some of it certainly has them as well and to a strong extent, for example Der Jahreslauf and Weltraum, and one of the earlier instances would be Kontrapunkte. I think it's entirely natural for composers to be interested in how other composers think and work - it's not so much to do with stealing as with looking for ways to view one's own work and preoccupations from a different and revealing angle (much like composition lessons in fact).
Your point seems a natural one indeed. |
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« Last Edit: 10:45:25, 21-07-2007 by Al Moritz »
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Al Moritz
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« Reply #429 on: 10:43:41, 21-07-2007 » |
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There are perhaps several different meanings of the word 'process' in the context of music which get used interchangeably, leading to confusion. One would be simply to refer to aural processes immediately apparent on the surface of a piece (such as most obviously in the case of certain minimalist works), another to underlying structural processes which may not be so obviously apparent but clearly inform the aural experience, such as long-range harmonic structure, for example. Both of those things are processes that can be identified relatively independently of knowledge of the composer's intentions. Then there are compositional processes which may or may not 'feed the surface', even those which serve a purely symbolical purpose for the composer (such as the manipulation of ciphers or symbolical numerical patterns, say). There is sometimes a rather didactic attitude towards such compositional processes which maintains that if you can't hear them directly, then they are fruitless. But there are many such processes that one might not be able to identify as such from listening alone (or only with very great difficulty), but nonetheless the work would be very different without them or with different techniques/processes. The same thing can be said of certain uses of reference/citation which cannot be heard directly, but again inform the experience.] Very good characterizations. The question about the importance or otherwise of processes seems to arise primarily when there seems either little evidence or little interest in what their effect is in sonic terms, if a piece is somehow more interesting to analyse than to listen to. It is natural that composers are interested in others' processes - and numerous non-composers are as well - I suppose I'm interested to know whether people think the audible result of the processes employed in Stockhausen are at least potentially comprehensible to non-specialist listeners (I'd like to believe they are - whether or not they like the experience thus produced is a different question)?
Well, the audible results of the processes employed in Stockhausen are certainly comprehensible to non-specialist listeners like me, but then the debate might be what is an "audible result"? For me there are certainly many more processes audible than for an uninitiated or less experienced listener, but then a composer will come along and say "hey, this is clearly audible as well", and I stand there and scratch my head. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #430 on: 10:48:49, 21-07-2007 » |
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I am not actually sure if I can agree at all that in Stockhausen “the processes are immanent in the sound to a greater extent than with many if not most other composers”, as you said earlier. I think what I should probably have said is "many if not most other serial composers", which is more like what I had in mind. I do not hear such overarching processes in Gruppen for example, even though one thing leads to another in the game of action-reaction. Quite. But Gruppen is in any case a clear step in the direction of moment-form, which is more concerned with distributions than with processes. The build-up to 63X could be cited as an example of a process of intensification, although, as you'll know, 63X isn't really part of the serial structure of the piece and IIRC was added after the rest was composed. I'm very glad that you found Vanity interesting. Actually there's hardly anything in it which isn't part of some process or other, though usually there are several superimposed, interwoven or alternating ones going on. |
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Al Moritz
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« Reply #431 on: 11:05:22, 21-07-2007 » |
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Quite. But Gruppen is in any case a clear step in the direction of moment-form, which is more concerned with distributions than with processes. Aren't you contradicting here what that you said about Momente, which is the prime example for moment form? Sorry, Al, I don't have time today to go into more detail about what I meant by processes and how they're heard, because I'd neeb to sit quietly and think about it for a while, but for now: by "process" I not only mean the kinds of things you've mentioned, but also for example the "evolutionary" process by which the characters of the "moments" in Momente are differentiated. If the "overarching" processes in Aus den sieben Tagen could be likened to watching a tree grow (in a speeded-up film!), something like Momente could be likened to looking at a forest: by observing different trees simultaneously in different stages of their lifecycle, that lifecycle can be mentally reconstructed. *** The build-up to 63X could be cited as an example of a process of intensification, although, as you'll know, 63X isn't really part of the serial structure of the piece and IIRC was added after the rest was composed. Sorry, what is 63x? I'm very glad that you found Vanity interesting. Fascinating, actually. Actually there's hardly anything in it which isn't part of some process or other, though usually there are several superimposed, interwoven or alternating ones going on.
Good to have that confirmation, and to know that my ears are not completely made out of stone |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #432 on: 11:15:39, 21-07-2007 » |
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I don't think I'm contradicting myself - the "distributions" of Momente (but not so much in Gruppen I think) are distributions of various stages in a process of differentiation, what Xenakis would have called an "outside-time" process.
... if he were me and not thinking properly. This should read "what Xenakis would have called an "outside-time" phenomenon." Or something. Not "process". Sorry.
63X is the rehearsal number in the score of Gruppen where the static chord is bounces around between the three orchestras. Unless I've misremembered that.
Which indeed I had.
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« Last Edit: 22:26:26, 21-07-2007 by richard barrett »
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #433 on: 13:32:57, 21-07-2007 » |
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Could it conceivably be Carré that has a 63x moment?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #434 on: 14:01:57, 21-07-2007 » |
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Could it conceivably be Carré that has a 63x moment?
Details, details... yes you're right of course - it does a similar thing though, I think (he says, wriggling pathetically). |
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