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Ian Pace
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« Reply #30 on: 23:04:19, 29-07-2007 » |
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Well, I'd like to ask what, on a more personal level, people here feel when listening to Varèse's music - what sorts of sensations and experiences does it provide for them, and in what way do they find those valuable/meaningful/etc.?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #31 on: 23:06:17, 29-07-2007 » |
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could submit itself to intense motivic 'development' in the hands of someone else (to take just one example). There is a sort of development though, no? Certainly, it's more that kind of strategy where he goes over the same ground, repeating bits and ornamenting it here and there... but of course at the end of the movement it's still just going on until he snips it off! Intégrales as well (an opening woodwind solo I know just a little better...); repeating that handful of notes with little variations in articulation and dynamic - and it's pretty much that material which the grunty horn moment later on is based on... |
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Biroc
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« Reply #32 on: 23:07:00, 29-07-2007 » |
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Well, I'd like to ask what, on a more personal level, people here feel when listening to Varèse's music - what sorts of sensations and experiences does it provide for them, and in what way do they find those valuable/meaningful/etc.?
I get the horn. Seriously...sorry (  )  Dunno if it's meaningful though...! |
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"Believe nothing they say, they're not Biroc's kind."
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Biroc
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« Reply #33 on: 23:09:18, 29-07-2007 » |
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could submit itself to intense motivic 'development' in the hands of someone else (to take just one example). There is a sort of development though, no? Certainly, it's more that kind of strategy where he goes over the same ground, repeating bits and ornamenting it here and there... but of course at the end of the movement it's still just going on until he snips it off! Intégrales as well (an opening woodwind solo I know just a little better...); repeating that handful of notes with little variations in articulation and dynamic - and it's pretty much that material which the grunty horn moment later on is based on... Indeed Ollie, Intégrales is integrated on a motivic front for sure...there are other connections between little tiny snippets of material that are modified slightly and distributed across the ensemble...but it's been a while since I was so familiar with the score, so can't recall 'em offhand - but they're there! |
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"Believe nothing they say, they're not Biroc's kind."
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pim_derks
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« Reply #34 on: 23:10:42, 29-07-2007 » |
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Pim, 1997 sounds very likely; I was living just behind the Concertgebouw at the time and dropped in frequently. I don't think we're talking about the same concert, Richard. Intégrales wasn't on the programme that afternoon, but I will never forget the marvelous performance of Equatorial! I still have the programme booklet of that concert ( Wie wat bewaart, heeft wat  ). The date was 10 May 1997. It was the first time that I went to a concert at the Concertgebouw (I was 19). The conductor was Jonathan Nott. Here's the programme: Luca Francesconi - Sirene/Gespenster (Dutch premiere) Edgard Varèse - HyperprismEdgard Varèse - EcuatorialLuigi Nono - Sarà dolce tacere Luigi Nono - LiebesliedEdgard Varèse - OctandreWolfgang Rihm - Responsorium (Dutch premiere) Other participants: Kevin Deas, bass Salome Kammer, voice Eric Daubresse, music assistant Frédéric Prin, sound engineer Gérard d'Elia, sound assistant Christophe Gualde, director Dutch Chamber Choir rehearsed by Huub Kerstens (remember him?) The concert was broadcast by Radio 4 on 13 May 1997 at 20.02 pm. I found a review of this concert, written by Frits van der Waa (I'm sorry, Richard): http://www.xs4all.nl/~fvdwaa/art/vk0907.htmAs you can read in the review, they used the Concertgebouw Organ in this performance. I believe Leo van Doeselaar was the organist that afternoon. During the interval, about a quarter of the audience was leaving so I decided to take a seat on the central balcony. I was sitting behind Louis Andriessen who was talking about the only Varèse record he could find when he was young (conducted by Robert Craft). Andriessen didn't like the piece by Rihm at all!  Perhaps the performance of Intégrales that you were talking about was also conducted by Jonathan Nott? |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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richard barrett
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« Reply #35 on: 23:19:03, 29-07-2007 » |
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'on this recording a special instrument combining characteristics of both ondes martenot and theremin is used'. Yes indeed, very coy. I think the idea was that they wanted something that sounded more like a theremin (which was the instrument originally written for) but which was played more like an Ondes Martenot (which was substituted when it turned out that the theremin parts were unmanageable). As I say, I believe a software solution was used. Chailly also goes back to the first version of the piece in using a single bass voice (originally amplified too!) rather than a choir. My feeling is that, since there are a lot more theremin players around now than there were in the 1930s, a couple of them ought to get together and nail these parts. As they say. Pim: I certainly wasn't at the concert you mention, though I think I ought to have been. |
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Bryn
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« Reply #36 on: 23:19:51, 29-07-2007 » |
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what instrument was used in place of Ondes Martenot or Theremin in the Chailly recording of Ecuatorial? The booklet says: 'on this recording a special instrument combining characteristics of both ondes martenot and theremin is used'. On the other hand I'm not sure if that's the answer to your question since rather lame explanation seems more likely to have been what prompted you to ask!  Ollie, it was indeed precisely that quote that prompted my question. By the way, I like the interpolations in Déserts. The original set, from the early '50s (as heard in the Nagano CDs) is decidedly rough compared to the third attempt (as used by Craft, Crego, Chailly, etc.), but with what Varèse had available to him, I find both versions of interest. I have never really taken to the Boulez option of omitting them, despite Varèse having sanctioned such a performance possibility. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #37 on: 23:23:35, 29-07-2007 » |
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since there are a lot more theremin players around now than there were in the 1930s, a couple of them ought to get together and nail these parts. Well, I'm game if you are. In a further complication, the part does go above the range of the ondes martenot models I know... although perhaps with the transposing buttons it could work nowadays... hm. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #38 on: 23:30:48, 29-07-2007 » |
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The electronic parts of Déserts are certainly very much of interest. I wonder if there'd be any possibility of improving further on them. The last version of Poème electronique I heard was made by Kees Tazelaar from the original one-channel tapes, resynchronising them according to the timings on the "usual" four-channel version and therefore omitting one whole analogue copying generation. The result was very impressive.
OK Ollie, theremins at dawn. I'm picking up good vibrations about this idea.
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« Last Edit: 23:32:57, 29-07-2007 by richard barrett »
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dotcommunist
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« Reply #39 on: 23:36:45, 29-07-2007 » |
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could submit itself to intense motivic 'development' in the hands of someone else (to take just one example). There is a sort of development though, no? Certainly, it's more that kind of strategy where he goes over the same ground, repeating bits and ornamenting it here and there... but of course at the end of the movement it's still just going on until he snips it off! Intégrales as well (an opening woodwind solo I know just a little better...); repeating that handful of notes with little variations in articulation and dynamic - and it's pretty much that material which the grunty horn moment later on is based on... I tend to hear these forms as unfolding blocks of static material, than motivically developing. As soon as everything has been iterated, the pieces don't really go anywhere, not that I'm unhappy about that. Part of the slight disappointment with Intregrales is where, after the oboe solo, the previously heard music repeats before the big chord at the end, - almost as if V bends to convention somewhat. The fact that Hyperprism avoids this kind of formal plan might serve to create the impression of having heard a longer piece than the 6 or 7 minutes it really lasts. -pim, that sounds like an awesome concert... I'm sure I've heard a piece by Rihm called 'responsorium' or whatever, am not really 100% sure. ...the titles tend to be difficult to remember when his pieces are generally so forgettable. |
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Bryn
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« Reply #40 on: 23:44:31, 29-07-2007 » |
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Richard, I can't remember whether if I have addressed this question to you before, but do you know anything about the realization of Poème Électronique by B.E.A.S.T., broadcast on Radio 3, from the Adrian Boult Hall on March 17th 1996?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #41 on: 23:47:39, 29-07-2007 » |
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Richard, I can't remember whether if I have addressed this question to you before, but do you know anything about the realization of Poème Électronique by B.E.A.S.T., broadcast on Radio 3, from the Adrian Boult Hall on March 17th 1996?
No I don't think you have, and I know precisely nothing about it. Kees's version dates from a few years after that, though, so I'm presuming the Birmingham people wouldn't have had access to the materials he had. |
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Bryn
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« Reply #42 on: 23:54:50, 29-07-2007 » |
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A pity that you don't know about it, Richard. I have tried Googling, but all the potentially promising links are to sites to which you academics probably have easier access. |
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pim_derks
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« Reply #43 on: 23:55:21, 29-07-2007 » |
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Richard, I can't remember whether if I have addressed this question to you before, but do you know anything about the realization of Poème Électronique by B.E.A.S.T., broadcast on Radio 3, from the Adrian Boult Hall on March 17th 1996?
No I don't think you have, and I know precisely nothing about it. Kees's version dates from a few years after that, though, so I'm presuming the Birmingham people wouldn't have had access to the materials he had. Has anyone here seen the current Soundbites exhibition in Leiden?  |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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richard barrett
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« Reply #44 on: 00:02:11, 30-07-2007 » |
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I'll see what I can find out, Bryn, but I would imagine the main point would have been the distribution of Varèse's sounds over a large array of speakers, as was done in 1958 in Brussels.
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