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Swan_Knight
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« on: 12:02:14, 28-08-2007 » |
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This arrived in the post this morning.
I've heard it only once, previously, back in 1991. That was in the early days of my exposure to serious music, and I didn't much care for it.
As a work, it seems to have suffered from the familiar disadvantage of having been raved about at its premiere (just been reading John Fowles' journals, where he describes it in ecstatic terms), with subsequent critics tripping over themselves to find faults ('could have been devised by the BBC Radiophonic workshop' was someone else's opinion).
I'd be interested in hearing what people think of W.R. before I listen to it again. I have to confess that I'm no lover of the War Poets.
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #1 on: 14:01:29, 28-08-2007 » |
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I don't know if it can work so well if you're no fan of Owen... although I suspect even then the Agnus Dei should do something for you. Is it the Britten recording you have?
I used to love it when I was in the process of discovering Britten - oddly enough I suspect I also discovered it in 1991. For me there are some extraordinarily moving things in it although it's a while since I've felt a need to listen to it; I'll probably give it a listen in the next couple of days now that you've reminded me of it. It certainly bears the marks of a pièce d'occasion but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing - Mahler 8 is also a bit that way for me, a piece I find does a lot for me but I don't need to hear it every day. Not knocking the BBC Radiophonic Workshop but sorry, no they couldn't have! As an outsider I've always found the Britten backlash in the UK understandable but very sad.
Things that are coming back to me as I type: the Lacrimosa, the Vishnevskaya Day of Judgement moments, Futility ('Move him into the sun'... which come to think of it crossfades with the Lacrimosa) the Agnus Dei...
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #2 on: 14:16:03, 28-08-2007 » |
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Yes, Ollie, it's the Britten recording that I have.
My allergy to the War Poets may have something to do with being force-fed them at school (along with much else), though whenever I've returned to them since, I've felt the same.
I think you're comparison with Mahler 8 is very instructive.....and I feel much the same about that work: I enjoy it, but rarely feel the need to listen to it. About once a year tends to do me.
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
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MrYorick
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« Reply #3 on: 17:33:17, 28-08-2007 » |
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Ah, the War Requiem...  I think it's absolutely important to listen to it in one session, because the effect of the overall architecture of the piece is one of its qualities. Yes, the Agnus Dei is special, isn't it? Especially the timing of it within the larger framework of the piece - it truly feels as the centerpiece of the entire Requiem, even though it comes relatively at the end. First you have the great violence of the ' Sanctus', then, without a pause, the baritone, very sober and calm, describing the end of it all, time, mankind,... The promise of redemption will not be fulfilled - Age is too weary to do anyting anymore; Earth has suffered too much, there will be no glorification, no drying of tears... pizzicato strings with flute and bassoon really give you the feeling of a total weariness at the End of the World... So, completely drowned, without hope, the end dark and empty, the Great Promise a lie: what could come next? A simple, circular melody on the strings, the tenor comes in with a gentle, floating musical line - At a Calvary near the Ancre - and at the end the soldier, for the first time, adopts the Latin of the traditional Mass: Dona nobis pacem - on raising musical phrase that Vishnevskaya described as "the music you hear on your death bed".  I have only heard the War Requiem live once. I had a ticket for the cheapest seats in one of the side aisles of the cathedral where it was performed, so I was facing the orchestra from the side, the soloists from the back and the choir from around the corner. Unfortunately, the amplification that was installed in the side aisles wasn't functioning, so for the whole duration of the work I could only hear a far away echo of the War Requiem while contemplating John Mark Ainsley's neck fat. And still - it was a profoundly moving experience - one of the best concerts I've ever attended. A dear friend of mine listened to the War Requiem, he rather liked it, but said that he thought that some of the choir passages sounded a bit tacky and amateurish. I defended Britten out of habit, and I still like the choir passages, but I can't help but feel that maybe he has a point...   What do others think?  Isn't this just the most beautiful photograph? |
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #4 on: 18:16:31, 28-08-2007 » |
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I believe that photo was taken after listening to the playback of the Sanctus during the recording.
I was around when the War Requiem was a new piece, and the impact it had was phenomenal. Now, it all seems inevitable, but at the time the idea of incorporating the Owen poems into the Requiem Mass was very startling. The poems were not nearly as well-known then as they are now. I remember my mother saying, "It's so obvious once someone has thought of it". It just seemed right.
I find that it has lasted well, and still moves audiences profoundly, but it's best heard live if you can (though the Britten recording is superb), and in a cathedral rather than a concert hall. It needs, ideally, a reverberant acoustic. Perhaps, though, no performers are ever going to equal the first ones, to whom the meaning of the work was all too real.
I heard Pears sing in it, as I expect many here did, and it was one of the profound experiences of my life. I've also sung in it myself, another profound experience. It isn't difficult for the choir, but routine performances simply will not do, especially from the soloists. Richard Hickox said, rightly I think, that it shouldn't be done too often. Every performance must be a special occasion rather than just another concert.
Swan_Knight, my son also had a hard time with Owen at school!
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« Last Edit: 20:08:33, 28-08-2007 by Mary Chambers »
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #5 on: 18:40:05, 28-08-2007 » |
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I don't think school serves literature particularly well, Mary.
I had an English teacher who, before introducing an Owen text, would say: 'This is one of the greatest poems in the English language.' When something gets a run-up like that, it's almost bound to be disappointing (I had a similar experience when I first heard 'Das Lied....', after someone had commented that it made you feel suicidal).
I'm sure in 1914-18, it was a shock to the system to read their stuff - especially to those who'd been brought up on Tennyson, Kipling et al. But nowadays, surely most of us realise that war is not a 'good thing'.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #6 on: 19:37:05, 28-08-2007 » |
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But nowadays, surely most of us realise that war is not a 'good thing'. I only wish that was true for "most" of us - but sadly I don't detect that sentiment readily on my twice-yearly visits to Britain, Swan-Knight  Pacificism appears to have become passe. The military marches of the Changing Of The Guard are much too alluring, and the few Rose Gentles who find the courage to speak up against it are brushed-aside by a media hungry for "military glory". |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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richard barrett
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« Reply #7 on: 20:00:33, 28-08-2007 » |
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But nowadays, surely most of us realise that war is not a 'good thing'. I only wish that was true for "most" of us - but sadly I don't detect that sentiment readily on my twice-yearly visits to Britain, Swan-Knight Pacificism appears to have become passe. The military marches of the Changing Of The Guard are much too alluring, and the few Rose Gentles who find the courage to speak up against it are brushed-aside by a media hungry for "military glory". On the other hand, Reiner, there's been a consistent majority (over 60%) in the UK who were and are opposed to the invasion of Iraq, and outside the Daily Mail I would say a 'media hungry for "military glory"' is a thing of the past. The problem is that '"most" of us' have no influence whatever on what the government does. It would be good to have some more democracy at home before claiming to be spreading it elsewhere. |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #8 on: 20:24:07, 28-08-2007 » |
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I'm shoulder-to-shoulder with you on that one. I don't see all of the UK press, of course - I just read the online versions of the ones I feel closest cause with. The Daily Mail isn't one of them, although my mum accepts everything in it as the authenticated truth Because of the topsy-turvy world in which a "Labour" leader followed a neocon to war, I've found the mealymouthed defence of the "Labour" policy in traditionally "Labour" papers very hard to accept... Brown's announcement that he won't set a deadline for troop withdrawal (despite Straw promising one a year ago) has been glossed-over in the Guardian, who also reported Bush's warmongering speech against Iran without a flicker of criticism. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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MrYorick
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« Reply #9 on: 21:14:51, 28-08-2007 » |
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Has anyone heard the tapes yet of Britten rehearsing the War Requiem for the recording? Are they particularly interesting or revealing? Can you hear Pears or Fischer-Dieskau, for example? I guess what I'm asking is: is it worth buying the Britten recording again only for the newly included 'Britten tapes'? Oliver Sudden, can I ask? Did you ever have a problem with Britten for not being... you know... modern enough. I remember so many years ago someone on the radio, saying that 'Britten could write a piece with only straight diatonic chords', as if it were something shameful... Did that ever bother you? (Maybe this question can be adressed to anyone!) |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #10 on: 21:21:47, 28-08-2007 » |
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(Maybe this question can be adressed to anyone!)
I didn't know I had a reputation for being a modernist hard-liner  ... at least not since my uni days and even then I had plenty of time for Britten. No, I've never had a problem with Britten not being modern enough; I do think he only used materials he'd 'digested' properly; once he felt able to take on non-tonal harmonies, for example, he certainly did. To be honest I find something like Our Hunting Fathers a little less coherent purely stylistically than something like Les Illuminations or the Serenade... that's a 'workmanship' thing though and has nothing to do with how much I love the pieces (and all of those I certainly do). I would also like to know if it's worth investing in another version of a recording I already have for the sake of a new remastering and the rehearsal tapes. Anyone who's compared them, do feel free to pipe up! |
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #11 on: 21:34:19, 28-08-2007 » |
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I obtained it from the River People for just shy of eight quid. You may decide that this is a very small price to pay for hearing BB in rehearsal. And there's an interesting story in the booklet about Britten's outrage when John Culshaw presented the surreptitiously made tape to him as a birthday present.
As for the remastering.....well, I believe the Penguin Guide complained about the hissiness of the digital transfer on the first CD version. So it may be worth your while, for a very modest outlay.
Will post my thoughts when I've listend to it.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #12 on: 21:35:15, 28-08-2007 » |
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On the other hand, Reiner, there's been a consistent majority (over 60%) in the UK who were and are opposed to the invasion of Iraq, and outside the Daily Mail I would say a 'media hungry for "military glory"' is a thing of the past. The problem is that '"most" of us' have no influence whatever on what the government does. It would be good to have some more democracy at home before claiming to be spreading it elsewhere.
The figures I saw around the time of the war showed a very narrow majority in favour of it (nothing like as big as the majority at the time in the US, but still a majority), though opinion changed later. Of course polls are dubious, but I'd like to see evidence for a 'consistent majority' of 60% - something I'd like to believe was the case, but needs to be demonstrated. A simple 'people against state' view of the war is far too simple. And 'most of us' can have an influence, by voting out pro-war candidates (as happened in 2005 when Galloway unseated Oona King). At least when the war seemed to be going well, one poll gave 63% support for it - http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,,937040,00.html . This is what often happens - you get support when a war is seen to be going well, then that support goes away when it isn't. But I'd like to know what the proposed better 'democracy at home' is (people of all sorts of political persuasion like to claim there's no real democracy when public opinion does not go that way, and some on the far left who refuse to engage with issues of consciousness make hollow claims to be speaking for 'the people' or conjure up fantasy-like monolithic views of the wishes of 'the workers' - in reality the leftist view is a small minority one, and the urgent task of the left is to try and change public opinion) - a referendum before such a war? I'd have been all in favour of that. |
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« Last Edit: 21:49:38, 28-08-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #13 on: 21:38:10, 28-08-2007 » |
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It was irritating to have to buy a new set of the recording, but I found the rehearsal tapes riveting.You don't hear much singing - it's mostly talking. The clarity of Britten's communication with large numbers is wonderful, but you can also hear tension in the over-energetic way he turns the pages of the score. I only wish I'd heard them before I sang in it. You don't hear Fischer-Dieskau, but Vishnevskaya's there, and Pears briefly (protesting a bit at the praise being heaped on him by Britten and Culshaw, and asking for another take of his "Dona nobis pacem"). Britten was absolutely furious that he had been secretly recorded by Culshaw, who sent the recording to him as a present - one which misfired badly!
(Oh, you've already mentioned that.)
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Bryn
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« Reply #14 on: 21:40:22, 28-08-2007 » |
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Well it's like this; I never did quite get round to buying the Decca recording of the War Requiem, in any format, so perhaps now is the time to take the plunge. I heard the LPs when they first came out, and was very impressed. Anyone know of an even cheaper alternative to Amazon's £7.97?
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