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Author Topic: Stravinsky: Craft v Walsh  (Read 338 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« on: 06:36:14, 26-03-2008 »

A new musicological feud has erupted with the publication of Stephen Walsh's new book about the interrelationship between Stravinsky and Robert Craft.  Rupert Christiansen reports in the Telegraph....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/03/26/bmarts126.xml
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ahinton
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« Reply #1 on: 07:01:42, 26-03-2008 »

A new musicological feud has erupted with the publication of Stephen Walsh's new book about the interrelationship between Stravinsky and Robert Craft.  Rupert Christiansen reports in the Telegraph....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/03/26/bmarts126.xml
Methinks Craft doth protest too much. It is a pity that he should seek in this way to take on Stephen Walsh as an avowed adversary, particularly as such publicly expressed vituperation on his (Craft's) part will inevitably do far more harm than good and provide journalists with less conscience than Mr Christiansen with ample fodder for gleeful fuelling of this unseemly fire. I am not seeking to undermine the importance of Craft's rôle in Stravinsky's later life and work either, but one undermines the elevated scholarship of Walsh at one's peril; Walsh himself would be well advised to distance himself from this unfortunate business as far as is possible - except that I rather doubt that he will need any such advice, as I imagine he is already following it...
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Bryn
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« Reply #2 on: 10:17:11, 26-03-2008 »

A new musicological feud has erupted with the publication of Stephen Walsh's new book about the interrelationship between Stravinsky and Robert Craft.  Rupert Christiansen reports in the Telegraph....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/03/26/bmarts126.xml

Anyone here got access to the Craft interview in Areté? I have to admit I have never read anything by Walsh on the subject of Stravinsky. My main sources have been Eric Walter White and Craft. It does occur to me though, that the fact that Walsh is necessarily somewhat removed from the direct knowledge of what he writes of, compared to Craft, is not to be dismissed too easily. Whatever his academic credentials, he remains, necessarily, a dealer in second-hand knowledge, does he not?
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...trj...
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« Reply #3 on: 10:23:09, 26-03-2008 »

Perhaps, Bryn, but it is also true that a little distance can benefit critical and scholarly assessment. I think that, whatever the merits or otherwise of Craft's own role and writings, his voice has to be treated with as much care as the composer's own words should be (which, again, aren't always the most reliable source of information or insight). People like Craft do provide a unique and useful perspective and abundance of information, but there is still a requirement for scholarship that isn't personally involved with the composer in question.
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Bryn
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« Reply #4 on: 10:36:26, 26-03-2008 »

Perhaps, Bryn, but it is also true that a little distance can benefit critical and scholarly assessment. I think that, whatever the merits or otherwise of Craft's own role and writings, his voice has to be treated with as much care as the composer's own words should be (which, again, aren't always the most reliable source of information or insight). People like Craft do provide a unique and useful perspective and abundance of information, but there is still a requirement for scholarship that isn't personally involved with the composer in question.

Fair enough, and it's not exactly the first time Craft's versions of history have been disputed. As I say, I have not read Walsh, but from reading a few reviews, I get a hint of Ben Watson's adulation for Zappa somewhere in the mix. I do hope that impression is entirely wrong. Wink

Too many potentially interesting books to be read, too many alternative uses of the time. I do hope Naxos hurry up with the re-issue of Craft's recording of Threni. Now there's a neglected masterpiece, if ever!
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...trj...
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« Reply #5 on: 10:41:06, 26-03-2008 »

Quote
I have not read Walsh

Me neither  Embarrassed Sad
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #6 on: 10:50:30, 26-03-2008 »

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I have not read Walsh

Me neither  Embarrassed Sad
I've read the first volume, and skimmed the second - they are excellent. I'm very much in agreement with Tim's point - a certain critical distance from one's subject can be the best perspective if one is to avoid writing hagiography (which I do think Craft ends up doing sometimes). Wondered if anyone knew Jonathan Cross's article 'Writing about Living Composers: Questions, Problems, Contexts', in Identity and Difference: Essays on Music, Language and Time, Collected Writings of the Orpheus Institute Vol. 5, Ed. Peter Dejans? Cross talks about Craft and Stravinsky a bit in this, saying:

In fact, the books are often as much about Craft and his frequently overstated view that Stravinsky would not have achieved what he did in his later years had it not been for Craft's influence. Fascinating documents though the Conversations books are, they are decidely unreliable as "authentic" or "truthful" accounts of Stravinsky's life, music and ideas. Who is speaking? Stravinsky or Craft? In any case as Richard Taruskin and Stephen Walsh, among others, have shown us, Stravinsky was constantly reinventing himself, his music and his own past. It is highly likely that he fed Craft lines which, given their close relationship, Craft had no option but to record as true. There could be little critical distance between composer and musicologist. More than thirty years after Stravinsky's death, Craft still regards himself as the custodian of the "truth" about Stravinsky. Just as what Tracey Emin tells us about her self and its relationship to her work needs to be evaluated critically, so does what Craft tells us about Stravinsky and his work.

I would suggest that the problem Cross identifies re Stravinsky still exists with respect to most writings on Messiaen, Stockhausen, Cage to an extent, Birtwistle, Finnissy, Lachenmann and numerous others.
« Last Edit: 11:03:46, 26-03-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
ahinton
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« Reply #7 on: 11:07:47, 26-03-2008 »

Quote
I have not read Walsh

Me neither  Embarrassed Sad
I've read the first volume, and skimmed the second - they are excellent. I'm very much in agreement with Tim's point - a certain critical distance from one's subject can be the best perspective if one is to avoid writing hagiography (which I do think Craft ends up doing sometimes). Wondered if anyone knew Jonathan Cross's article 'Writing about Living Composers: Questions, Proiblems, Contexts', in Identity and Difference: Essays on Music, Language and Time, Collected Writings of the Orpheus Institute Vol. 5, Ed. Peter Dejans? Cross talks about Craft and Stravinsky a bit in this, saying:

In fact, the books are often as much about Craft and his frequently overstated view that Stravinsky would not have achieved what he did in his later years had it not been for Craft's influence. Fascinating documents though the Conversations books are, they are decidely unreliable as "authentic" or "truthful" accounts of Stravinsky's life, music and ideas. Who is speaking? Stravinsky or Craft? In any case as Richard Taruskin and Stephen Walsh, among others, have shown us, Stravinsky was constantly reinventing himself, his music and his own past. It is highly likely that he fed Craft lines which, given their close relationship, Craft had no option but to record as true. There could be little critical distance between composer and musicologist. More than thirty years after Stravinsky's death, Craft still regards himself as the custodian of the "truth" about Stravinsky. Just as what Tracey Emin tells us about her self and its relationship to her work needs to be evaluated critically, so does what Craft tells us about Stravinsky and his work.

I would suggest that the problem Cross identifies re Stravinsky still exists with respect to most writings on Messiaen, Stockhausen, Cage to an extent, Birtwistle, Finnissy, Lachenmann and numerous others.
I think that both you and Cross not only have a very valid point here but one which is perhaps especially acutely pertinent in the case of Stravinsky; Cross's remark about Stravinsky's frequent self-reinvention is particularly relevant here, in that artists who habitually do that kind of thing only make it even harder for their contemporaries to write about them in ways that can be guaranteed as representative and accurate. Writing about a living composer does indeed have its own problematic issues, but writing about one whom one knows personally is perhaps potentially fraught with even greater dangers.

Walsh's work is, to my mind, not only almost peerless in its own field but is the result of many years of constant and diligent research; his two volumes on the subject that he has almost made his life's work are truly formidable. That Craft appears to be attitudinising in the manner in which he is now reported as doing puts him in a rather poor light, I think; to my mind, this spite in the face of painstaking scholarship reeks of proprietoriality being undermined by reality.
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...trj...
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« Reply #8 on: 11:13:11, 26-03-2008 »

Wondered if anyone knew Jonathan Cross's article 'Writing about Living Composers: Questions, Problems, Contexts', in Identity and Difference: Essays on Music, Language and Time, Collected Writings of the Orpheus Institute Vol. 5, Ed. Peter Dejans?

I didn't, but will seek it out.

I would suggest that the problem Cross identifies re Stravinsky still exists with respect to most writings on Messiaen, Stockhausen, Cage to an extent, Birtwistle, Finnissy, Lachenmann and numerous others.

It's a huge problem with Ligeti and Penderecki (differently in either case). In the case of the former it becomes hard to find many assertions about his music that don't originate in the composer's own words. Which isn't to say that those assertions are illegitimate but that they need to be evaluated as carefully as any other data and seen for what they are.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #9 on: 11:21:58, 26-03-2008 »

I would suggest that the problem Cross identifies re Stravinsky still exists with respect to most writings on Messiaen, Stockhausen, Cage to an extent, Birtwistle, Finnissy, Lachenmann and numerous others.

It's a huge problem with Ligeti and Penderecki (differently in either case). In the case of the former it becomes hard to find many assertions about his music that don't originate in the composer's own words. Which isn't to say that those assertions are illegitimate but that they need to be evaluated as carefully as any other data and seen for what they are.
This is an especially big problem with much explicitly 'political' music, I find, where critical opinion often consists of a parroting of what the composer (through title or programme note) has told us that a piece is 'about' (Penderecki's Threnody 'conveys the horror of nuclear war' or Finnissy's North American Spirituals 'delivers a searing statement about racism') without requiring much further investigation into if or how these sorts of ideas or sentiments are somehow made manifest in the music itself (about which it is much easier then to just talk about in terms of antiquated notions of taste and the like).
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martle
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« Reply #10 on: 11:26:52, 26-03-2008 »

I'll echo Ian's endorsement of Walsh - I've only read the first volume too, but it is truly exceptionally fine work and I can't possibly imagine Walsh to have taken anything less than painstaking care in getting his facts right.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #11 on: 11:32:18, 26-03-2008 »

Has anyone ever compared Craft's relationship to Stravinsky with that of Anton Schindler with respect to Beethoven?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Bryn
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« Reply #12 on: 11:40:28, 26-03-2008 »

I'll echo Ian's endorsement of Walsh - I've only read the first volume too, but it is truly exceptionally fine work and I can't possibly imagine Walsh to have taken anything less than painstaking care in getting his facts right.

Well, competing claims on time or not, I have spent the past half-hour or so searching out sensible prices for the first two volumes of the Walsh project. While I was at it, and in need of another item to get free p&p, I had a look for Stravinsky DVDs and came across:

 

which also serves to offer a further alternative set of views on the subject.
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ahinton
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« Reply #13 on: 12:39:25, 26-03-2008 »

Has anyone ever compared Craft's relationship to Stravinsky with that of Anton Schindler with respect to Beethoven?
I am not aware that this has ever been done, although I suspect that if anyone did so they might just risk falling foul of Craft's lawyers while he's in the mood that he appears to be in at present.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #14 on: 20:52:41, 26-03-2008 »

I couldn't agree more on the principle of getting critical distance from a composer, but Stephen Walsh's writings on Stravinsky are poorly researched and not at all impartial. They do indeed seem very scholarly, but there are major gaps in who he has chosen to interview and which sources he has reported on, and the more one looks into this in detail the more he appears to be motivated by a wilful ignorance of the agendas of some surviving members of the Stravinsky family and by a dislike of Craft (which is not remotely the same thing as an appropriately objective scepticism).
« Last Edit: 20:55:27, 26-03-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

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