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Author Topic: the avant-garde... how did they do?  (Read 226 times)
IgnorantRockFan
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« on: 22:57:29, 26-08-2008 »

Browsing through my old "Guinness Book of Answers" from 1977, I came to the section "History of Music", which lists the developments of each musical era and the principle composers from that era.

The last entry reads:

Dates (approx.)  - Today

Name of era - Avant-garde

Musical developments - Avant-garde is history in the making and any list of composers would be arbitrary since one cannot tell which of the many directions taken by modern music will prove most influential. There have always been avant-garde composers, without which the art of music would never have developed: we would take many names from the above chart as good examples. Here are some names of avant-gardistes of prominence.

Principal composers - Luigi Dallapiccola (b. 1904)
John Cage (b. 1912)
Luigi Nono (b. 1924)
Hans Werner Henze (b. 1926)
Karlheinz Stockhausen (b. 1928)
Inaais Xenakis (b. 1922)



With the benefit of hindsight, what do Members think of this "arbitrary" list? Did they live up to expections and maintain their 1977 "prominence"? Were they "most influential"? Or were they eclipsed by contemporaries not included on this list? Who is missing from the list?


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Allegro, ma non tanto
time_is_now
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« Reply #1 on: 23:23:26, 26-08-2008 »

It's not a bad list at all, actually - they all remain important, and in fact I'd say the lasting significance of all six of those figures is probably clearer today than it was 10 or 20 years ago.

The only thing I'd question is the use (and implied definition) of the term 'avant-garde'. It certainly seems very odd to call Dallapiccola avant-garde - I'd have called him a 'modern classicist' or a 'lyrical modernist'. Similarly, Henze arguably represents more of an extension of the Romantic tradition through Mahler and Schoenberg/Berg than a radical break with the past like Cage or Xenakis.

This sort of terminological issue is particularly crucial, actually, in arguing for the importance of someone like Cage or Xenakis, since I'd make the case that the significance of both those composers, in their different ways, has at least as much to do with the way they sought to do things differently from their contemporaries as it has to do with their break with the past/'tradition'.
« Last Edit: 23:54:20, 26-08-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

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richard barrett
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« Reply #2 on: 23:29:19, 26-08-2008 »

Dallapiccola is indeed a strange inclusion, and Pierre Boulez (who was still more or less writing music back then) a strange omission.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #3 on: 23:33:57, 26-08-2008 »

I'm very surprised that Berio didn't make the list. Or Ligeti, or Penderecki (who had a higher profile back then than he is now). I would call any of them (and Boulez) more 'avant-garde' than Dallapiccola or Henze.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #4 on: 23:58:00, 26-08-2008 »

Were they "most influential"? Or were they eclipsed by contemporaries not included on this list? Who is missing from the list?
Sorry, I hadn't noticed your final couple of questions there. They had occurred to me of course, but I decided it was pointless to start naming omissions - that can be an endless exercise. Ian mentions a few obvious ones, though; and although I can sympathise with the omission of Boulez, I think Richard's right to say that this was a more surprising omission back in 1977.

I should probably add that I wasn't born then. Wink
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
MT Wessel
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« Reply #5 on: 00:28:00, 27-08-2008 »


Re: the avant-garde... how did they do?.

Er, shurely they ain't finished yet (hic)  Sad
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lignum crucis arbour scientiae
Robert Dahm
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« Reply #6 on: 01:08:11, 27-08-2008 »

Yes, I certainly think that both Dallapiccola and Henze are strange inclusions - not because I don't think they're important, but because of the other composers they beat out for 'pole position', as it were.

Quote from: tinners
This sort of terminological issue is particularly crucial, actually, in arguing for the importance of someone like Cage or Xenakis, since I'd make the case that the significance of both those composers, in their different ways, has at least as much to do with the way they sought to do things differently from their contemporaries as it has to do with their break with the past/'tradition'.
I very much agree. The author appears to have defined 'avant-garde' chronologically, rather than with reference to the music itself. I just don't think such an approach is really tenable after about 1910.

And, in an ideal world, shouldn't be tenable at all!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #7 on: 01:19:29, 27-08-2008 »

I very much agree. The author appears to have defined 'avant-garde' chronologically, rather than with reference to the music itself. I just don't think such an approach is really tenable after about 1910.

And, in an ideal world, shouldn't be tenable at all!
I still like the term, for all that it is problematic and has been subject to varying definitions. There's something to be said for Peter Bürger's characterisation of specifically 'anti-art' movements (especially Dada) as constituting the true 'avant-garde' - Greil Marcus has written about a type of canon that leads from this through the Lettrists and Situationists up to the punk movement - maybe it's trying a bit hard, but this canon isn't unmeaningful. In a post-war German context, I use the term more broadly, simply to refer to a species of music that constitutes a palpable break with that of the preceding era - so that the sort of flirtation with twelve-tone music on the part of those who continued to inhabit a neo-classicist/Neue Sachlichkeit aesthetic (including the post-war Fortner, Henze, much of Klebe, and various others) does not really amount to an avant-gardist strain, whereas the work of Eimert, Stockhausen, Koenig, Schnebel post-Versuche, Riedl and others is. B.A. Zimmermann is a difficult composer in terms of these categories - it's not really until the 1960s that his work inhabits a comparable space to the previous avant-garde, by which time many of them had moved onto other things; even a monumental work like the Requiem doesn't seem to constitute such a break as Stockhausen from Kreuzspiel onwards (or Boulez after the first two piano sonatas and flute sonatina, or Schaeffer and Henry, or Xenakis, or Cage after 1951) did. Nothing is wholly divorced from what came before, and hardly anything doesn't do something new, but the difference in degree makes the categories workable, I believe. Certainly they were meaningful in terms of the aesthetic positions of some of the opposing camps in the 1950s.
« Last Edit: 01:23:01, 27-08-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Robert Dahm
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« Reply #8 on: 02:43:47, 27-08-2008 »

I very much agree. The author appears to have defined 'avant-garde' chronologically, rather than with reference to the music itself. I just don't think such an approach is really tenable after about 1910.

And, in an ideal world, shouldn't be tenable at all!
I still like the term, for all that it is problematic and has been subject to varying definitions. There's something to be said for Peter Bürger's characterisation of specifically 'anti-art' movements (especially Dada) as constituting the true 'avant-garde' - Greil Marcus has written about a type of canon that leads from this through the Lettrists and Situationists up to the punk movement - maybe it's trying a bit hard, but this canon isn't unmeaningful. In a post-war German context, I use the term more broadly, simply to refer to a species of music that constitutes a palpable break with that of the preceding era - so that the sort of flirtation with twelve-tone music on the part of those who continued to inhabit a neo-classicist/Neue Sachlichkeit aesthetic (including the post-war Fortner, Henze, much of Klebe, and various others) does not really amount to an avant-gardist strain, whereas the work of Eimert, Stockhausen, Koenig, Schnebel post-Versuche, Riedl and others is. B.A. Zimmermann is a difficult composer in terms of these categories - it's not really until the 1960s that his work inhabits a comparable space to the previous avant-garde, by which time many of them had moved onto other things; even a monumental work like the Requiem doesn't seem to constitute such a break as Stockhausen from Kreuzspiel onwards (or Boulez after the first two piano sonatas and flute sonatina, or Schaeffer and Henry, or Xenakis, or Cage after 1951) did. Nothing is wholly divorced from what came before, and hardly anything doesn't do something new, but the difference in degree makes the categories workable, I believe. Certainly they were meaningful in terms of the aesthetic positions of some of the opposing camps in the 1950s.

I find the way you've engaged with the label far preferable to the way I interpret the author's, in that you ground your definitions in the aesthetic and musical content of the works themselves, rather than simply in chronology.
I just tend to find that applying labels in any kind of prescriptive sense reeks of that model of teaching that says "Xenakis was born in 1921 (or 1922) and therefore he writes avant-garde music". Or, at its worst "Beethoven was a composer in the Classical period, until he invented Romanticism". Labels certainly have their uses, but those uses grow firmly out of an analysis and understanding of the musical text itself, and the individual composers involved.

Ultimately, all of the composers you name interact with what might be described as 'avant-garde concerns' in radically different ways. That doesn't mean that they can't be described as being avant-garde, but it does mean that to describe them as such and leave it at that does them a disservice. In a similar, but more specific vein, the 'New Complexity' appellation (which I'm sure was delivered with the best of intentions, and by people familiar with the real issues involved) resulted in the grouping together of composers as a 'School' based almost purely on the perceived difficulty of their notation, which is surely almost offensively superficial.
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