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Author Topic: Richard Trunk - a forgotten German  (Read 2381 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #15 on: 21:11:50, 23-09-2008 »

Reiner, Richard + Turfers: it may be that you are right to pour scorn on Herr Trunk and his music, given his membership of the NSDAP. But it has not yet been established on this thread why he joined that party:

Fair point - but I'm inclined to agreement with Richard that anyone who joined in 1931 is "very likely" to have joined out of reasons of sympathy for the organisation's core beliefs and "values" Sad   

I wonder if in 2058 there will be apologists for Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice claiming that they joined-up to the Republican cause out of reasons of self-preservation? Sad

The "he voss only obeying ze orders" argument has long since been discounted, I think?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #16 on: 21:23:30, 23-09-2008 »

Reiner, Richard + Turfers: it may be that you are right to pour scorn on Herr Trunk and his music, given his membership of the NSDAP. But it has not yet been established on this thread why he joined that party: nor does a bit of elementary googling furnish us with the answer. I, for one, would like to know that answer before denouncing him.
Pim's mention of the Wikipedia.de entry (there is none in English) was what tipped me off; it too mentions that he in 1933 was named president of the Munich Akademie der Tonkunst. I wonder if they have a plaque still hanging there in his honor? In the case of Munich it would not surprise me.
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Baz
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« Reply #17 on: 21:26:27, 23-09-2008 »

Reiner, Richard + Turfers: it may be that you are right to pour scorn on Herr Trunk and his music, given his membership of the NSDAP. But it has not yet been established on this thread why he joined that party:

Fair point - but I'm inclined to agreement with Richard that anyone who joined in 1931 is "very likely" to have joined out of reasons of sympathy for the organisation's core beliefs and "values" Sad   


Without doubt, nobody could disagree. But it is difficult to see how this (in itself) makes any of his MUSIC written between 1900 and the 1930s suddenly to be without merit, or unworthy of hearing. I cannot (pace TF) see how this situation differs in its essentials from the case of Wagner.

Baz
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Ted Ryder
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« Reply #18 on: 13:43:12, 24-09-2008 »

Reiner, Richard + Turfers: it may be that you are right to pour scorn on Herr Trunk and his music, given his membership of the NSDAP. But it has not yet been established on this thread why he joined that party:

Fair point - but I'm inclined to agreement with Richard that anyone who joined in 1931 is "very likely" to have joined out of reasons of sympathy for the organisation's core beliefs and "values" Sad   


Without doubt, nobody could disagree. But it is difficult to see how this (in itself) makes any of his MUSIC written between 1900 and the 1930s suddenly to be without merit, or unworthy of hearing. I cannot (pace TF) see how this situation differs in its essentials from the case of Wagner.

Baz
     
   Or why Trunk's music prior to 1930 should be thought superior to, or more worthy than, his later work. Had 1883 been Wagner's first year on earth and not his last would we say any work prior to Siefried Act 3 was acceptable and later works, when say he was titular Head of Musical Culture of the Third Reich, were worthless? If Wagner, in the face of Hitler's terror, had had an epipthany and become a founder member of the "White Rose" would we laud Parsifal and consign the work contemporary with his anti-Semetic writings as second-rate?
   Why is it thought that any German who joined the Nazi party in its formative years, either because he hated communism or indeed because be believed the humiliation of the 1st World War was to some extent the responsibility of the Jews, be particularly held up for vilification? I would suggest it is because this German was born at a time  and place when any obnoxious views he held were brought to fruition by an evil government.
   If Adolf Hitler been born Alan Hillier in Worthing, led Britain to a World War and carried out a thorough pogrom of eugenic "cleansing " would H.G Wells be read to-day?
Why is H G Wells read to-day? Why should not Orff's (or Trunk's) music be held in high regard if that music is of high quality?
« Last Edit: 14:00:48, 24-09-2008 by Ted Ryder » Logged

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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #19 on: 14:08:32, 24-09-2008 »

There is an early Piano Quintet, opus 10; and a late String Quartet in A minor, opus 80. There are also a great many works for Male Chorus, because of course when in 1925 Trunk was appointed director of the Rheinische Musikschule of Cologne and professor at the Staatliche Hochschule, he became extremely active as conductor of the renowned Männergesangverein. Indeed all through his life he - obliging and accommodating fellow as he seems to have been - conducted choral societies, even during his stint in New York after 1912. In later life he even wrote a set of ten songs on twentieth-century American texts (opus 84). That must have cost him something.

It is always strangely thrilling to explore the work of a newly-discovered composer is it not.
« Last Edit: 16:01:31, 24-09-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #20 on: 14:48:36, 24-09-2008 »

There seem to be some cross purposes at work here. Of course one should never judge a composer's work without having heard it, but given that the composer under discussion (see Autoharp's link) was prepared to submit himself and his work to the task of glorifying the Nazi party, to an extent which Strauss or Orff or even Egk were clearly not prepared to stoop to, and which Wagner himself would no doubt have disdained as a philistine and thuggish way to treat artists and their work, even if he might have agreed with some of the party's racist policies, and the fact that Trunk's work has been for all practical purposes completely forgotten, I find it very unlikely indeed that he would have produced anything of interest. Evidence to the contrary has not so far been forthcoming.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #21 on: 14:55:54, 24-09-2008 »

Why is H G Wells read to-day? Why should not Orff's (or Trunk's) music be held in high regard if that music is of high quality?

The last I saw, Orff's music was held in high regard. I don't see where H G Wells fits into this though. Are you calling him some kind of Nazi?
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #22 on: 15:26:10, 24-09-2008 »

Why is H G Wells read to-day? Why should not Orff's (or Trunk's) music be held in high regard if that music is of high quality?

The last I saw, Orff's music was held in high regard. I don't see where H G Wells fits into this though. Are you calling him some kind of Nazi?

Although he called himself a socialist, Wells was both an opponent of universal suffrage - believing that the average citizen was incapable of taking political decisions and should have no role in determing how society should be taken forward; an advocate of rigid state central planning; and a prominent proponent of eugenics (which is a major theme of his novel The New Machiavelli)  So, no democrat, but not a Nazi either, I'd argue.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #23 on: 15:52:13, 24-09-2008 »

Evidence to the contrary has not so far been forthcoming.
This is my point too (Baz, are you listening?). I know nothing about R. Trunk, except that Sydney Grew brought him up, backed up by critics who have remained anonymous. This is why I would wait to seek out his music until others whose opinion I have grown to respect (not excluding a better-informed Member Grew) say something to further recommend this vile human being's labours.
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autoharp
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« Reply #24 on: 15:58:55, 24-09-2008 »

There appears to be a Richard Trunk Musikschule in Tauberbischofsheim. Have no idea if that's relevant.
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Ted Ryder
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« Reply #25 on: 16:10:05, 24-09-2008 »

Why is H G Wells read to-day? Why should not Orff's (or Trunk's) music be held in high regard if that music is of high quality?

The last I saw, Orff's music was held in high regard. I don't see where H G Wells fits into this though. Are you calling him some kind of Nazi?

Although he called himself a socialist, Wells was both an opponent of universal suffrage - believing that the average citizen was incapable of taking political decisions and should have no role in determing how society should be taken forward; an advocate of rigid state central planning; and a prominent proponent of eugenics (which is a major theme of his novel The New Machiavelli)  So, no democrat, but not a Nazi either, I'd argue.
            Perhaps not a "Nazi", I do not know what Wells thought of Hitler or of the Jews but I believe he was aganist the war. My point was that anti-Semitism is not the only road to perdition and had an eugenics movement in Britian in the 30s carried out a pogram in the name of progess and purity Wells (and Marie Stopes), if they held to their beliefs, would have been no less guilty than any German member of the Nazi Party, of course there was no eugenics pogrom in Britian so we do not equate Wells with any "problematic" composer in 30s Germany and we do not think of him, or his work, as "vile". I do not see why a great artist must be a "good person" I again mention Gesualdo.
           Is it not strange that in US films the villian is often a well-spoken Oxbridge man who likes classical music and indeed we all know that in films serial killers love Bach, so it is not universially agreed that High Art equates with high morals.   
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I've got to get down to Sidcup.
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #26 on: 16:13:11, 24-09-2008 »

There appears to be a Richard Trunk Musikschule in Tauberbischofsheim. Have no idea if that's relevant.

Tauberbischofsheim Baden is certainly relevant in that it is the place where Herr Trunk contrived to enter this world on the tenth of February 1879. He departed it in 1968 at Herrsching on the Ammersee - a picturesque spot with which we are well acquainted. There are monasteries near-by in which the monks spend most of their time brewing disagreeable alcoholic beverages.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #27 on: 16:17:06, 24-09-2008 »

 Is it not strange that in US films the villian is often a well-spoken Oxbridge man who likes classical music.   

Not just US films either ...

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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
time_is_now
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« Reply #28 on: 16:50:26, 24-09-2008 »

Reiner, Richard + Turfers: it may be that you are right to pour scorn on Herr Trunk and his music, given his membership of the NSDAP. But it has not yet been established on this thread why he joined that party: nor does a bit of elementary googling furnish us with the answer. I, for one, would like to know that answer before denouncing him.
Pim's mention of the Wikipedia.de entry (there is none in English) was what tipped me off
This is quite the silliest thread I've come across on this board.

When I first stopped in a day or two ago I assumed that all these people denouncing Herr Trunk knew something about him independently of the two or three sentences that can be gleaned from Wiki.de. So I kept quiet, assuming that Mr Grew was being mischievous about someone notorious of whom I was ignorant.

If all anyone is going on is those couple of snippets, then I can only echo autoharp and suspend judgment until someone is able to furnish more information or (as is more likely) we all forget about it and find something a little less speculative to argue about.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #29 on: 17:15:45, 24-09-2008 »

Is it not strange that in US films the villian is often a well-spoken Oxbridge man who likes classical music

I thought that was because American actors thought it was bad for their image to be seen in movies as bad guys and therefore they generally aren't very good at it.

I do think the H G Wells connection is interesting, because (like Wagner in fact) his "philosophy" was a strange mixture of progressive and reactionary ideas. His belief in eugenics was shared by a surprising number of people in the wake of its modern formulation by Francis Galton, including Emile Zola and George Bernard Shaw. While the idea as a whole is rightly discredited, it ought to be stressed that none of these people advocated forced sterilisation or genocide as means of realising it.
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