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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #15 on: 21:26:10, 05-10-2008 » |
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And may I express my disappointment at the scanning job on that one.  You may indeed, TF - but it was scanned by IMSLP volunteers. It's still legible, I'd say? |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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autoharp
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« Reply #16 on: 08:43:20, 06-10-2008 » |
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Thanks for posting the Rubinstein, Reiner. I've heard little of his music, so I'll look into it, I don't think we're likely to come to much agreement about Medtner though (!). I don't reckon Medtner was "forced" to write anything: he would have written pretty much the same kind of music wherever he ended up - and one can't say that about many composers. He's no avant-gardist for sure, but that didn't prevent him composing some really first-rate music in my view. But he's no mere conservative either as a study of his rhythmic approach would demonstrate. For starters, the rhythmic implications of the first page of his op.1 no.1 go beyond pretty much anything else from 1896/7. The aesthetic, I would agree, does hark back - in fact, I'd be tempted to go back further than the "half-century" you mention. But when you refer to "salon music" and "technical wizardry and glossy bombast, shorn of content or depth" I did wonder whether we had the same composer in mind! But anyway, we can agree to disagree there. This is not intended as nit-picking, but the use of the word "significance" here needs explanation. (One of the reasons for this thread, after all). I suspect the nuance you intend is subtly different from that which martle describes. And I imagine that you would probably dismiss the works of York Bowen for similar reasons? By coincidence I posted a link to the CD note from Stephen Hough's recording of Bowen's piano music. This quote may not be particularly relevant, but nevertheless may be of interest to some members. "The sense of virtual exile which this melancholy summary conveys must invite passing comparison with the fate of the composer Nikolai Medtner (1880-1951), himself a refugee from Revolutionary Russia and domiciled in North London for the last sixteen years of his life. Like Bowen, Medtner was a pianist of the highest distinction. The piano is central to the output of both (especially to Medtner, who wrote for it almost as exclusively as Chopin). Moreover, both composers still espoused the same idiom and aesthetic in the middle of this century as they had at its outset, and neither was afraid to air in print some serenely unrepentant views on the relative modernists of his time. Bowen’s music evinces a variable but still significant debt to the Russian Romantic piano tradition of Balakirev, Liapunov, Rakhmaninov and Medtner (whose G minor Sonata, opus 22, was in his repertoire), and it is possible to advance the Medtner comparison further on purely technical grounds. ‘...Too generous with his substance. He never seems to appreciate the value of’ repose’, reported the critic for The Spectator upon hearing Bowen’s Third Concerto in 1907. His colleague with the Sunday Times had already complained mildly of themes being ‘over-developed’ in the First Concerto (1903). Such criticisms have been levelled too at Medtner’s tendency to pursue every contrapuntal consequence of a theme to its ultimate conclusion, notably in such works as his Sonata in E minor, opus 25 (The Night Wind). While Medtner is a composer of greater structural resource, these similarities may go some way to explain the continuing obscurity of Bowen’s large scale works and the virtual disappearance of Medtner’s from his adoptive (and his native) country until quite recently. Both composers were stridently championed by Kaikhosru Sorabji, himself the iconoclastic composer of some of the most fearsome piano music ever written, to whom Bowen dedicated his Twenty-four Preludes in 1950." |
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #17 on: 08:59:30, 06-10-2008 » |
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You may indeed, TF - but it was scanned by IMSLP volunteers. It's still legible, I'd say?
Yes, nothing against you, needless to say -- I just find these sorts of problems quite funny, somehow. |
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #18 on: 09:04:37, 06-10-2008 » |
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I think I was too hard on Medtner last evening.
May be autoharp is going to help me change my mind about his music.
Last year my good student played one of his pieces and I liked it.
Medtner was not forced to do anything. He was not this kind of a person, Reiner. He did what he wanted and what he thought was good music.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #19 on: 09:26:24, 06-10-2008 » |
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While Medtner is a composer of greater structural resource, these similarities may go some way to explain the continuing obscurity of Bowen’s large scale works and the virtual disappearance of Medtner’s from his adoptive (and his native) country until quite recently.
I'd take issue with Hough there, factually. It's not true to say that Medtner was neglected in Russia, far less to say that he was in "obscurity". His works, especially the Studies, were on the Exam syllabus of the Moscow Conservatoire and the Gnessin Academy, and were published by the State Music Publishers - the ultimate sign of respectability and official endorsement. The whole issue of what gets published is another question that drags on to this day - availability of Russia's classic works remains shocking, and you can't currently get the vocal score of EVGENY ONEGIN... except by ordering it from Germany. It's a rather weak kind of musicology that relies on hokum heart-string pulling - "the cinderella composer who wasn't invited to the ball". Especially when it's not true Medtner was not forced to do anything. He was not this kind of a person, Reiner. He did what he wanted and what he thought was good music.
I mean that his financial circumstances forced him. He was left penniless when he fled Russia. He had lost the income from his published works, due to accident of war. He had to live somehow. So he wrote the music for which there was a market. I think the comparison with Bowen is a false and dangerous one - their situations were not similar at all. Bowen had a steady dull job as a Professor at the Royal Academy of Music, with a salary which ensured that he never had to worry about how to feed and clothe himself or his family. By comparison Medtner lived in poverty, giving private lessons to any pupils he could find. When even that collapsed, he had to rely on the charity of friends. His good luck in his last years was due to the unexpected patronage of the Maharjah of Mysore - without which his fate would have been even more uncertain. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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autoharp
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« Reply #20 on: 10:28:54, 06-10-2008 » |
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While Medtner is a composer of greater structural resource, these similarities may go some way to explain the continuing obscurity of Bowen’s large scale works and the virtual disappearance of Medtner’s from his adoptive (and his native) country until quite recently.
I'd take issue with Hough there, factually. It's not true to say that Medtner was neglected in Russia, far less to say that he was in "obscurity". His works, especially the Studies, were on the Exam syllabus of the Moscow Conservatoire and the Gnessin Academy, and were published by the State Music Publishers - the ultimate sign of respectability and official endorsement. Sorry; I should have made clear that the Bowen CD note was written by Francis Pott. What are these "Studies"? Do you mean Skaski? As far as I know, Medtner wrote only one piece entitled Etyud, a lesser-known piece without opus number. Pott is referring to the "large scale works" - I assume he means piano concertos and larger sonatas. Nevertheless, I'd agree if only because many recordings of Medtner I came across in the 1970s were by Russian pianists. I'd be interested to hear from TP about Medtner's standing in the Soviet Union back in those days. Medtner was not forced to do anything. He was not this kind of a person, Reiner. He did what he wanted and what he thought was good music.
I mean that his financial circumstances forced him. He was left penniless when he fled Russia. He had lost the income from his published works, due to accident of war. He had to live somehow. So he wrote the music for which there was a market. I think the comparison with Bowen is a false and dangerous one - their situations were not similar at all. Bowen had a steady dull job as a Professor at the Royal Academy of Music, with a salary which ensured that he never had to worry about how to feed and clothe himself or his family. By comparison Medtner lived in poverty, giving private lessons to any pupils he could find. When even that collapsed, he had to rely on the charity of friends. His good luck in his last years was due to the unexpected patronage of the Maharjah of Mysore - without which his fate would have been even more uncertain. He certainly had financial problems. My understanding is that Medtner was in some demand as a pianist during the 1920s and beyond, rather more than was in accordance with his wishes. Rachmaninov was extrememly supportive, sending him gifts of money, facilitating a profitable American tour in 1924-5 and averting a disaster when the proceeds from a later American tour were not honoured. After his Russian tour in 1927 "Medtner . . . returned to his quiet life in Paris where he resumed composing, his style unchanged and his inspiration undiminished by his circumstances. The Second Improvisation for piano, two more grand piano sonatas - the Romantica and the Minaacciosa - and the Sonata Epica for violin and piano are only the largest of his wprks to be composed in the quiet Paris suburb" (Hamish Milne - Music and Musicians - 1980). Nowhere will you read of him being forced to write salon pieces in order to earn a living. On the contrary, one is much more likely to encounter the following: "Medtner's dedication to what he considered the immutable laws of his art was such that for him composition amounted almost to a profession of faith" (Malcolm Boyd - 1980 Grove). Pretty similar to York Bowen in fact. A fairly big entry in Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Karlovich_Medtnerand I've just discovered this. The recording of Sonata Reminiscenza is better (+ complete) than the one previously posted. http://www.medtner.org.uk/downloads.html |
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« Last Edit: 10:41:23, 06-10-2008 by autoharp »
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Andy D
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« Reply #21 on: 11:18:16, 06-10-2008 » |
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Significant works personally include: Messiaen Vingt Regards (ahead of the Catalogue IMO) Feldman Triadic Memories, Palais de Mari Ligeti Etudes and to a lesser extent the Piano Concerto Stockhausen Klavierstücke I'm not sure how you could evaluate significance in any sort of objective way - 4' 33" anyone?  |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #23 on: 11:03:03, 08-10-2008 » |
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Significant works personally include: Messiaen Vingt Regards (ahead of the Catalogue IMO) Feldman Triadic Memories, Palais de Mari Ligeti Etudes and to a lesser extent the Piano Concerto Stockhausen Klavierstücke I'm not sure how you could evaluate significance in any sort of objective way - 4' 33" anyone? I think, though - to get back to the original thread subject (not that I object to the Metner discussion, although I'm going to spell his name without the silly 'd' if I mention him!) - that, as autoh suggested, 'significant' implies something other than the personal tastes of the speaker. I can accept the position that it's impossible to evaluate this in any sort of objective way (which could in itself mean either (a) that there's no such thing, or (b) that there is such a thing but we can never assess it without our subjective reactions getting in the way), although it's not my own position, but if that's the position you're going to take then I'm interested to know what you think might be the difference between 'personally significant' and just 'things that I like'. Again, not saying there is no difference, just wondering how you might define it ... Sorry for all the Paceian subordinate clauses and parentheses!  |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #24 on: 11:18:52, 08-10-2008 » |
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Probably stating the blindingly obvious, but personal aspects aside, two obvious markers for significance in composers would be their standing in the repertoire, and their influence on other composers, usually (though not always) related.
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...trj...
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« Reply #25 on: 11:44:29, 08-10-2008 » |
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How about Kurtag's "Games" Can they stand beside Ligeti's Etudes?
Maybe. A different definition of 'significant' might be required, but the Ligeti wear their aspirations for canonisation on their sleeve a little too much for me. And I'm not sure how great their influence on subsequent piano composer might be, since they represent (for me at least) an endpoint in Ligeti's technical development rather than a bold new beginning. There's supposed to be a complete recording of all 8 volumes of Játékok coming out on BMC, but it's taking an age: they've just released a second CD of highlights. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #26 on: 11:46:10, 08-10-2008 » |
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Probably stating the blindingly obvious, but personal aspects aside, two obvious markers for significance in composers would be their standing in the repertoire, and their influence on other composers, usually (though not always) related.
I would have thought those were among the obvious criteria, in which case, like autoh, I find Catalogue d'oiseaux a bit of an odd choice for 'most significant of the 20th century' (as indeed I did at the time). Much as I love it and all that ... Surely Cecil Taylor must be in there somewhere? Has anyone mentioned him yet on this thread? |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Andy D
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« Reply #27 on: 12:11:33, 08-10-2008 » |
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I'm interested to know what you think might be the difference between 'personally significant' and just 'things that I like'.
The Messiaen, Feldman and Ligeti fall into both categories; I return to them often to listen to but they were doing new things, as far as I was concerned, and also encouraged me, as a non-musician and non-composer, to get hold of and study the scores, gaining some insight into what's going on. Whereas the Stockhausen pieces were my first introduction to contemporary piano music when I got an LP from the library many years ago, so they're significant for me but I don't listen to them now, except when there was a discussion here (about no 9 I think). There are pieces which I like but which aren't particularly significant personally eg Tippett's 2nd Sonata, Prokofiev's War Sonatas. |
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autoharp
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« Reply #28 on: 13:36:10, 08-10-2008 » |
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Probably stating the blindingly obvious, but personal aspects aside, two obvious markers for significance in composers would be their standing in the repertoire, and their influence on other composers, usually (though not always) related.
Quite. So it could, and maybe often arguably does follow that the most significant music is not necessarily the best (oops) - or perhaps I should say most rewarding, even leaving personal aspects aside. |
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...trj...
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« Reply #29 on: 14:27:00, 08-10-2008 » |
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So does that promote Mode de valeurs ... to the top of the list of significant piano works? That would be an odd result.
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