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Author Topic: who was Shostakovich?  (Read 25287 times)
ahinton
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« Reply #300 on: 11:03:00, 23-04-2007 »

I know that this piece was some kind of spoof.

No it is not actually. A lot of people react in this way to what we write. We leave it as an exercise for other Members to work out why that should be.
An intereting retort, to be sure - and one which perhaps reveals your achievement as even greater than i had previously though, since you so effectively made it sound like one...

. .  . this monumental symphony was written in just three weeks . . .
If we may say so that does not surprise us. Indeed it is eminently credible. But does it help the music? It is is it not always better to take one's time when writing music? Bach and Mozart wrote very quickly, but Bach kept on tinkering with his movements for years afterwards, improving them in many ways. Mozart was an unique genius and S. was no Mozart.
And your point is...? Shostakovich spent a lot longer on his Tenth Symphony, a work of approximately the same overall dimensions and I mentioned the astonishing speed at which he wrote his Eighth merely to illustrate - as surely everyone else accepts - that he was capable of expressing such thoughts on such a scale within an almost alarmingly short space of time; there was never any question that this compositional velocity resulted from anything other than total and sincere devotion to the job in hand, for there is nothing slapdash about this symphony at all.

Many more recent composers such as Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikoffski, Elgar and Sibelius spent years on their symphonies - too long even, in some cases, where their first drafts and thoughts might have been better after all.
So what? Only its composer will know how long it may take him/her to compose a symphony and the amount of time taken for each one will depend entirely on the composer and the symphony concerned - as indeed should be the case, although the fact that it took Elgar (whom you mention here) well over sixty years to complete his Third Symphony is rather unusual in more respects than one. To be more serious, however, one could consider the example of Comrade Medtner, who took some 45 years to complete his Piano Quintet (a nevertheless rather disappointing work, by his own best standards, "we" think).

Erwartung on the other hand was dashed off in a kind of trance state. We don't think S. was in a state of trance.
One would surely have to be something beyond the mere genius that Comrade Schönberg was in order to conceive and write down a work as powerful and detailed as Erwartung in any state other than full consciousness.

But in general is not polish the great indispensability in all Art?
Did anyone here suggest otherwise?

In this Eighth Symphony polish appears more a desideratum. Which perhaps brings us back to something Member Time Is Now was saying.
Er - no; all that it actually "brings us back to" is a sense of despair at your astonishing ineptitude and utter lack of perception and sensitivity towards this work, whose greatness one would at least have expected to elicit due appreciation from your critical faculties even if the work itself does not necessarily appeal to you personally...

Best,

Alistair
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #301 on: 11:10:22, 23-04-2007 »

But in general is not polish the great indispensability in all Art?
Did anyone here suggest otherwise?

This member would suggest that, if one finds value in the category of the sublime in art ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_%28philosophy%29 ) then the whole concept of 'polish' ceases to have such a high degree of relevance. Would one be correct in thinking that Member Grew might see the infiltration of this concept into musical production as constituting a corruption that he might find of comparable significance to the events of 1908?

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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
ahinton
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« Reply #302 on: 11:11:24, 23-04-2007 »

Comrade Pace has many thoughts concerning Comrade Shostakovich's failure to realise to fruition the category of the subject as outlined by Comrade Adorno as having originated in the work of Comrade Beethoven as the expression of revolutionary bourgeois ideals (which later turned sour as part of a historically inevitable process), but rarely attained in the work of Slavic composers even after their society shifted from feudalism to state feudalism with only a seven-year hiatus (during which period this type of subject was in the process of development - and was later developed further by Comrade Ustvolsk'aya),
Yes, "we" rather thought that you might...

but would suggest that to avoid this turning into an over-extended exchange (and also in light of the fact that we have not yet had a response from Member Grew), that this should be left for private exchanges between the two Comrade Members.
Which two "Comrade Members" should this be? Whatever the answer to that may be (if indeed there is one at all), I have to admit that my own take on this is that the real point at issue is that Comrade Shostakovich was not actually seeking specifically (or perhaps even at all) to "realise to fruition...(etc., etc.)" those things to which Comrade Pacenko draws attention here when composing his Eighth Symphony or indeed any of his others...

Best,

Alistair (whose "camaraderie" in the Soviet sense was ever - and remains - decidedly "unproven", as they would say in his native Scotland)
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ahinton
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« Reply #303 on: 11:14:39, 23-04-2007 »

But in general is not polish the great indispensability in all Art?
Did anyone here suggest otherwise?

This member would suggest that, if one finds value in the category of the sublime in art ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_%28philosophy%29 ) then the whole concept of 'polish' ceases to have such a high degree of relevance. Would one be correct in thinking that Member Grew might see the infiltration of this concept into musical production as constituting a corruption that he might find of comparable significance to the events of 1908?
The Member Hinton neither can, nor would wish to, speak for "the Member Grew" (an expression that itself should be used on this forum with due care and attention) but at the same time fully accepts Comrade Pacenko's point about "polish" here as an expansion of his own earlier observation to the said Member Grew.

Best,

Alistair
« Last Edit: 16:29:08, 23-04-2007 by ahinton » Logged
trained-pianist
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« Reply #304 on: 15:57:31, 23-04-2007 »

I am disappointed today because I could not order Kondrashin conducting Shostakovich symphonies. The site turn out doesn't send anythink to Ireland. Now where do people in Ireland buy CD on the net? I think they have different CD players in America and I can not order it from American sites.
This is my fate to be without Shostakovich symphonies. The only option is to order them through some CD shop here, but it is going to be costly.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #305 on: 16:07:35, 23-04-2007 »

I am disappointed today because I could not order Kondrashin conducting Shostakovich symphonies. The site turn out doesn't send anythink to Ireland. Now where do people in Ireland buy CD on the net? I think they have different CD players in America and I can not order it from American sites.
This is my fate to be without Shostakovich symphonies. The only option is to order them through some CD shop here, but it is going to be costly.

You can get the complete set for £45 on Amazon.co.uk, t-p - just do a search for Kondrashin and Shostakovich on there.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
increpatio
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« Reply #306 on: 16:58:31, 23-04-2007 »

I think they have different CD players in America and I can not order it from American sites.

First isn't true. We *do* have a nasty import tax on luxury items (coming from outside the EU probably), however, which makes imports a little pricey (but all the more satisfying : )  ).

This is my fate to be without Shostakovich symphonies. The only option is to order them through some CD shop here, but it is going to be costly.

I order most of my music from Amazon.co.uk; they usually arrive two or three days after they've been shipped (shipping time depends on whether they have your item in stock, of course).
« Last Edit: 17:35:07, 23-04-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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trained-pianist
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« Reply #307 on: 18:46:27, 23-04-2007 »

Ian and increbatio. I tried to order from that site Amazon UK, but they don't send to Ireland they say. I was ready to pay 74 euro (it is about £50). May be I don't understand something.
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BobbyZ
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« Reply #308 on: 19:09:41, 23-04-2007 »

Ian and increbatio. I tried to order from that site Amazon UK, but they don't send to Ireland they say. I was ready to pay 74 euro (it is about £50). May be I don't understand something.

t-p

If you go to amazon.co.uk and search for Kondrashin Shostakovich, you will find it offers three options to buy "new and used" from third party suppliers. Click on that and you will find caiman usa. I have bought several cd's from them successfully. Under "delivery", it says international delivery available, click for rates. The EU is mentioned, provided that Amazon payments are accepted in that country. If you click on "countries covered by Amazon payments", it includes Ireland. So that could be a way to go, £44.99 plus £3.94 delivery. Hope that isn't too complicated.
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Dreams, schemes and themes
trained-pianist
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« Reply #309 on: 19:13:33, 23-04-2007 »

Thank you BobbyZ, I will try again. I found that Kondrashin there.
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Bryn
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« Reply #310 on: 20:09:14, 23-04-2007 »

t-p, I hope I am not too late in warning you that ordering somenthing of the price asked by Caiman may well involve considerable Customs charges in addition. I am very surprised that Amazon UK will not send direct to you. Have you tried Amazon France, or Germany? I order from them fairly frequently without problem. Are you sure that it is not simply out of stock at Amazon UK?
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #311 on: 20:15:32, 23-04-2007 »

I went here and then proceeded to pay. At that time it said that they don't send to Ireland.
May be we did something wrong.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Dmitry/dp/B000IONEZG/ref=pd_rhf_p_1/202-8703559-0047011?ie=UTF8&qid=1176759825&sr=8-1
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Bryn
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« Reply #312 on: 20:17:06, 23-04-2007 »

Hmm, the set appears not to be available form either Amazon France or Germany. It does appear to now be out of stock at Amazon UK. They suggest 1 to 3 weeks for delivery. Are you sure it is not just the free delivery suervice which is unavailable to you, due to being in Ireland?
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Baziron
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« Reply #313 on: 22:54:44, 23-04-2007 »

We will shortly be reading Member Grew's further thoughts upon Shostakovich 8. Before we do, however, there are a few links that it might be worth consulting. They give other views of this monumental work from a number of differing and interesting perspectives:

a) Symphony No. 8 (Shostakovich)

b) Shostakovich: Symphony No. 8 in C minor, op. 65

c) Dmitri Shostakovich's Eighth Symphony in Words

(For some unknown reason, a portion of the last link is missing at the end of the last page!  Sad)

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #314 on: 10:09:39, 24-04-2007 »

This member would suggest that, if one finds value in the category of the sublime in art ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_%28philosophy%29 ) then the whole concept of 'polish' ceases to have such a high degree of relevance.

What a lot of ideas there are in that link to which in message 301 Mr. Pace directs the Members!

Nevertheless we shall stick with Schelling: "The one thing to which absolute objectivity is given, is Art"; with Swinburne: "Art for Art's sake first of all" (which he got from Gautier but never mind); and with St. Oscar "All Art is at once surface and symbol."



These Hume and Burke johnnies in 1757 were not really our sort of people. We do not trust them, quite. Their true and vested interests must lie elsewhere than in Art, which was not the first thing in or on their minds. We stand shoulder to shoulder with Marx on the Burke question.

The Schopenhauer passage is jolly interesting though. He was Wagner's great idol Mr. Magee tells us. Members will enjoy Schopenhauer's seven steps between the beautiful and the sublime:

  Grade 1. feeling of beauty
  Grade 2. weakest feeling of sublimity
  Grade 3. weakish feeling of sublimity
  Grade 4. ordinary feeling of sublimity
  Grade 5. fullish feeling of sublimity
  Grade 6. fullest feeling of sublimity

To think that there are seven ratings of sublimity! We may be able to combine that scale with our own seven ratings for composers and generate interesting new discoveries to be reported to Members in due course.

As for polishing, our recommendation thereof arises simply from personal experience. The more we tinker with and polish the music and even the words which we write, the more value they acquire and the more rewarding they become. Often during the polishing process new possibilities for combinations present themselves, and the Artist must choose the most fitting from among them. Such polishing is the essence of the Artist's task, really. A better word is perhaps simply "refinement." Again we go back to Bach: he was at it constantly.
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