May I ask Mr Grew which recording(s) of the Eighth he has listened to in the preparation of his "analysis"?

Once again, I am compelled to mention the irony that Mr Grew has chosen to side with Shostakovich's detractors in the CPSU, and to attack both the man and his work using their vocabulary and methodology.

Thank you, Member Sudden.

 It does of course behove us to consider that in large-scale compositions, where there must needs be a tension between the architectural and dramatic thrusts, the emotional fulcra will of necessity occur in quite different places rather than in a rigidly predetermined position, and that the centre of gravity, albeit usually existent in one or other of the outer movements, may as well reside towards the centre, should the composer's scheme require it.

Mr Sudden interestingly draws our attention to proportions in the violin concerti of Beethoven and Brahms, and in particular those between the first and other movements of these works. He purports to assert that they - that is, we believe, the 'proportions' - are of a similar ratio to that in the Schostakhovitchh symphony currently under discussion.

Well! We might observe, rather obviously in our view, that concerti thus conceived (nota bene - 'conceived'!), that is to say in the classical mould, are perforce going to have rather protracted first movements, are they not? They after all conform to the habit of written-out double expositions, thus entailing a not inconsiderable extension of the structure. By our own careful reckoning, this increases the length of a sonata first movement by a factor of something like 1/7th!

On the other hand, we suppose a counter argument may legitimately be mounted which might contend that, were performances of the first movements of the majority of 'classical' symphonies to observe the repeat signs customarily inserted at the end of the exposition of said movements, the relative proportions between movements would increase correspondingly! And would lead,we suppose, to a similar distribution of structural weight as found in the aforementioned concerti!

All of which should lead Members, and ourselves, to the inevitable conclusion that, in relation to Mr. Schostakhovitchh's eighth symphonic effort, we are talking rather a lot of drivel! However, we shall keep Members updated on our subsequent findings...

"the member Grew", henceforth to be know as "priapic Syd"?

Thanks to ollie this poem belongs now to Shostakovich thread. I knew that Shostakovich has a cycle on Tsvetaeva poetry, but I did not know it.
Marina Tsvetaeva

Where does this tenderness come from?

Where does this tenderness come from?
These are not the – first curls I
have stroked slowly – and lips I
have known are – darker than yours

as stars rise often and go out again
(where does this tenderness come from?)
so many eyes have risen and died out
in front of these eyes of mine.

and yet no such song have
I heard in the darkness of night before,
(where does this tenderness come from?):
here, on the ribs of the singer.

Where does this tenderness come from?
And what shall I do with it, young
sly singer, just passing by?
Your lashes are – longer than anyone's.


Translation from Russian © Elaine Feinstein

It is not for me (or anyone else) to argue with Member Sydney Grew about his dislike of the music of Shostakovich: he has a perfect right to his views, and I understand clearly why he holds them. To him, "Music" should have a transparent meaning, a clear syntax, and a formal (and audible!) coherence through which these qualities are clearly articulated. If it does not, he is quite entitled to rebuke the composer for having "misled" his listeners. It is perfectly understandable why these views should be held: they embody in their way a complete musical vocabulary and reception. Music that does not fulfil them falls quite short of the high expectations that crave the necessary deliverance.

But Member Grew will also (I know) respect the differing views of others with regard to this particular composer. I should myself love to provide an analysis of S's 8th symphony - one that shows it to be perfectly well-conceived and -controlled as a symphonic exercise (even without hidden undertones). But I really do not think this message board is a suitable place to provide it. It would be too long, too polemic, too basically "uninteresting" for most readers. Those who have heard the work will also have formed their own impressions and reactions to it - that is just how it should be.

I just make two observations:

There is little point in agonising over the honourable Lebrecht's metaphor in this regard; we know you hold a high opinion of him, but had his statement been worth more than a "passing thought" he would certainly have provided the appropriate scholarly references to support it.


I must confess that I do not know Khachaturian's 1940 ballet Gayane (which you singled out in your previous posting), so cannot comment upon the closeness of materials you cite. (I shall try and listen to the work in due course to see what you mean.) But the thematic creativity and development I do know from the 8th symphony seems (to me anyway) to stand up in symphonic terms.

I also happen to think that the overall orchestration (despite the work's speedy composition) is of a high standard, and in places exceptionally well handled (though most of the finer details have to be observed with the aid of a score, since they tend often to be missed by the ear - so clever is the detail).

We shall, I know, eventually simply have to agree to differ on all this. I feel sure that Member Grew will be just as positive and generous in that event as I hope I am being.

Baz

Far from being banal and meretricious, it is just about the most interesting and pleasant tune in the whole work! As Gerald Abraham and Procophieff  both said S. was not very good at tunes.

And as far as S.'s "poking fun" at things is concerned it does not succeed with us. We find no "fun" at all in his works. He was a very poker-faced gentleman, not a natural smiler as was Richard Wagner for instance.

That being said though, we remain intrigued by the good Mr. Lebrecht's references to the comical characters: "a soldier walking off on furlough" and "a bassoon caricaturing puffed-up aparatchiks." It does not sound like Mr. Lebrecht's "passing thought" at all (as another Member has suggested). He must we think have got them from somewhere specific; presumably ultimately from something the composer himself said or wrote. There are probably even more of them scattered around, not just those two. Perhaps we should write to Mr. Lebrecht himself and enquire.