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Author Topic: Sorabji appreciation  (Read 5124 times)
ahinton
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« Reply #60 on: 12:27:43, 13-05-2007 »

We have long been intrigued by something the admirable Mr. Lebrecht writes in respect of Sorabji: "He never married, and was said to enjoy puerile charms." Those are the good Mr. Lebrecht's words.

We have not seen a reference to this characteristic anywhere else, and would be most grateful to Mr. Hinton if he would be kind enough to tell us more, if he knows more . . .

We have as yet seen nothing from Mr. Hinton which addresses this question, and wonder whether he might now at last be in a position to turn his mind for a moment from his doubtless important and indeed delightful contributions to the shampoo thread to it (to our request we mean) and ideally to provide either a confirmation or a denial?

I have no idea to what charms Mr Lebrecht refers, nor do I know the alleged source of his apparent claim in this regard; it is correct to say that Sorabji never married, however. I reckon that this makes Mr Lebrecht's statement a half-truth, don't you?...

Best,

Alistair
« Last Edit: 12:30:02, 13-05-2007 by ahinton » Logged
Evan Johnson
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« Reply #61 on: 15:17:18, 13-05-2007 »

This is apropos of absolutely nothing at all, but I wanted to put in that as a result of this thread I purchased awhile ago Jonathan Powell's recording of Gulistan and Rosario d'arabeschi, having previously known Sorabji only by reputation and a glance at a few scores. 

I am really, really taken with these pieces - Rosario in particular; the idea of the constant availability not just of the whole of the keyboard but the whole of, I imagine, the entire pre-existing history of pianistic gesture (for, unless I'm mistaken, not having seen the scores, Sorabji was not a significant innovator in that particular respect, in these pieces at least) at any moment is quite striking - although I know Ian will turn red at the comparison I find something quite Finnissian about that.

Where to turn next for a particular fan of Rosario?  I have no musical objection to, say, OC, but I do have a budgetary one at the moment  Shocked
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #62 on: 15:25:01, 13-05-2007 »

I am really, really taken with these pieces - Rosario in particular; the idea of the constant availability not just of the whole of the keyboard but the whole of, I imagine, the entire pre-existing history of pianistic gesture (for, unless I'm mistaken, not having seen the scores, Sorabji was not a significant innovator in that particular respect, in these pieces at least) at any moment is quite striking - although I know Ian will turn red at the comparison I find something quite Finnissian about that.

I'm certainly not turning red - that is a similarity between some piano works of Finnissy and Sorabji in that sense, yes, but there's much more to Finnissy than that. He draws upon a wide range of existing pianist gesture, but continually transforms them into something unique and highly distinctive, and in many different ways. I feel a comparison with Brahms in that respect is more apposite. It's not just about gestural eclecticism.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #63 on: 15:33:55, 13-05-2007 »

unless I'm mistaken, not having seen the scores, Sorabji was not a significant innovator in that particular respect, in these pieces at least) at any moment is quite striking - although I know Ian will turn red at the comparison I find something quite Finnissian about that.

Where to turn next for a particular fan of Rosario?  I have no musical objection to, say, OC, but I do have a budgetary one at the moment  Shocked
There is indeed more to Finnissy than that. But there is also more to Sorabji. I think the experts will agree with me that these two pieces show Sorabji in a less texturally innovative mode than, say, in parts of OC and the Fourth Sonata and numbers of other pieces I've come across which aren't yet available on commercial recordings. I think it's also true to say that JP tends in his performances to emphasise their continuity with pianistic tradition, while other pianists (eg. Habermann and Ogdon) place more stress on the opposite tendency, and the relative lack of performing indications in the scores (especially as concerns balance between different "voices") seems to leave this matter relatively open to interpretation.
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #64 on: 15:41:21, 13-05-2007 »

unless I'm mistaken, not having seen the scores, Sorabji was not a significant innovator in that particular respect, in these pieces at least) at any moment is quite striking - although I know Ian will turn red at the comparison I find something quite Finnissian about that.
There is indeed more to Finnissy than that. But there is also more to Sorabji. I think the experts will agree with me that these two pieces show Sorabji in a less texturally innovative mode than, say, in parts of OC and the Fourth Sonata and numbers of other pieces I've come across which aren't yet available on commercial recordings. I think it's also true to say that JP tends in his performances to emphasise their continuity with pianistic tradition, while other pianists (eg. Habermann and Ogdon) place more stress on the opposite tendency, and the relative lack of performing indications in the scores (especially as concerns balance between different "voices") seems to leave this matter relatively open to interpretation.

Certainly I didn't mean to imply that there wasn't more to Finnissy than that; what strikes me as a point of similarity, as I said, is the inflection of the proto-modernist(?) idea of the constant availability of a complete spectrum of musical "options" to refer to gestural or textural types... which has also struck me in some of MF's large-scale piano music in particular.  As for Sorabji, it clearly stands to reason that this particular impression of mine is subject to the performer's turn of mind.  Is there a correlation in your (or anyone else's) experience between length and textural innovation in Sorabji, then?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #65 on: 16:00:21, 13-05-2007 »

Is there a correlation in your (or anyone else's) experience between length and textural innovation in Sorabji, then?
Only in so far as the longer pieces tend to be more "serious" in intent than the shorter ones - while Rosario ends with something which obviously comes under the heading "tarantella", such a formal, textural or referential strategy would be completely out of place in the long works I mentioned - although they contain things like fugues, variations and passacaglias, these are often a quite individual confrontation between strict form and innovative texture. The variation movement of OC, for example (nearly an hour in itself), moves through some regions of piano texture which were quite unfamiliar to me.
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increpatio
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« Reply #66 on: 16:09:44, 13-05-2007 »

I am really, really taken with these pieces - Rosario in particular; the idea of the constant availability not just of the whole of the keyboard but the whole of, I imagine, the entire pre-existing history of pianistic gesture (for, unless I'm mistaken, not having seen the scores, Sorabji was not a significant innovator in that particular respect, in these pieces at least) at any moment is quite striking - although I know Ian will turn red at the comparison I find something quite Finnissian about that.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you talk of "pianistic gesture" here - are you talking of figuration/technique/texture?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #67 on: 16:11:11, 13-05-2007 »

I think it's also true to say that JP tends in his performances to emphasise their continuity with pianistic tradition, while other pianists (eg. Habermann and Ogdon) place more stress on the opposite tendency, and the relative lack of performing indications in the scores (especially as concerns balance between different "voices") seems to leave this matter relatively open to interpretation.

Just to add to this that an emphasis upon mediation and individuation is itself equally part of pianistic tradition. Tradition only becomes 'Tradition', in the sense of an object, after the event; during its own time it constitutes a process.

Certainly I didn't mean to imply that there wasn't more to Finnissy than that; what strikes me as a point of similarity, as I said, is the inflection of the proto-modernist(?) idea of the constant availability of a complete spectrum of musical "options" to refer to gestural or textural types... which has also struck me in some of MF's large-scale piano music in particular.  

Is that particularly 'proto-modernist', though? In one sense or another, composers have drawn upon a wide range of earlier models for centuries (take the Goldberg Variations, for example, which shifts between Italian, German and French styles (and the use of folk-song) quite effortlessly, whilst always being utterly itself).
« Last Edit: 16:12:43, 13-05-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Evan Johnson
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« Reply #68 on: 16:37:16, 13-05-2007 »

Certainly I didn't mean to imply that there wasn't more to Finnissy than that; what strikes me as a point of similarity, as I said, is the inflection of the proto-modernist(?) idea of the constant availability of a complete spectrum of musical "options" to refer to gestural or textural types... which has also struck me in some of MF's large-scale piano music in particular.  

Is that particularly 'proto-modernist', though? In one sense or another, composers have drawn upon a wide range of earlier models for centuries (take the Goldberg Variations, for example, which shifts between Italian, German and French styles (and the use of folk-song) quite effortlessly, whilst always being utterly itself).

Of course, but what I was referring to was a (perceived, at least) simultaneity of availability of these archetypes; sort of the equivalent in pianistic-gestural space (?!) of the constant registral cycling of early Boulez or Babbitt.  And I'm not speaking of "style" here or necessarily of discretely identifiable "traditions" or idioms in the sense of the Goldbergs, but something smaller-scale--on the level of figuration, of syntaxes (syntaces?) for the placement of fingers from one moment to the next.

All of this, I hasten to add, is based on an as-yet-fairly-superficial acquaintance with two not-terribly-characteristic pieces of Sorabji, so I don't intend that it be taken as a comment on anything fundamental about his art...
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #69 on: 16:44:19, 13-05-2007 »

Of course, but what I was referring to was a (perceived, at least) simultaneity of availability of these archetypes;

Sure, but that can be found (albeit to a lesser degree) in Mozart as well, where a relatively short section can incorporate and integrate aspects of German, Italian and Turkish archetypes (in his more mature works)? Or in Chopin when (as in the Third Sonata, which I've been looking again at, mean to post something further on in response to roslynmuse's fascinating observations) there can be both integration and interplay of French, Italian and Polish idioms?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Evan Johnson
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« Reply #70 on: 21:34:05, 13-05-2007 »

I'm certainly not turning red - that is a similarity between some piano works of Finnissy and Sorabji in that sense, yes, but there's much more to Finnissy than that. He draws upon a wide range of existing pianist gesture, but continually transforms them into something unique and highly distinctive, and in many different ways. I feel a comparison with Brahms in that respect is more apposite. It's not just about gestural eclecticism.

Didn't see this earlier.  Of course I agree; by saying "something Finnissian" I by no means meant to imply "everything Finnissian."  The Brahms parallel, while much subtler of course, is a very interesting one; I certainly don't know Sorabji (or Finnissy, or for that matter even Brahms!!) well enough to comment on that, aside from to say that it's significant food for thought.

Looking forward to the book!
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Jonathan Powell
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« Reply #71 on: 11:39:30, 30-05-2007 »

If anyone would like to hear the first section (i.e. movements 1-5) of Opus clavicembalisticum with more right notes than in some of the commercially available recordings, you can download them from links at the bottom of this page: http://jonathanpowell.wordpress.com/recordings/.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #72 on: 12:04:12, 30-05-2007 »

Thanks!
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increpatio
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« Reply #73 on: 19:29:39, 30-05-2007 »

Ditto the thanks.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #74 on: 15:14:28, 20-07-2007 »

Here is the first page of Sorabji's 1919 First Piano Sonata. What do Members think of this as music? Are 7/8ths really natural? Is it all too much, and would they prefer a more regular rhythm? Is it affected rather than gifted? Or do they on the other hand find that it is inspired and works - does something - for them?


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