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Author Topic: Oliver Knussen on "Music Matters" today  (Read 3195 times)
jamesweeks
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Posts: 33


« Reply #60 on: 19:40:10, 22-05-2007 »

Ian, I don't think anyone is being over-deferential, still less probably disagrees with you; you may be right about OK, I don't know, but it seemed more fruitful to dispense with attacking people personally (which can get bitter and cynical - and gossipy - so quickly, we all know people like that) and address the wider system that allows the problems we've been discussing to arise. I just don't want to talk about whether OK is a nice man or not! Let's plough our own furrows.

I gather the LS is without an Artistic Director for a while, is that right?

Since I seem to be one of only two participants in the discussion who is actually in the regular business of producing pieces
I count at least three...though perhaps I've not appeared on your radar yet, Richard!  Wink
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time_is_now
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« Reply #61 on: 19:46:48, 22-05-2007 »

I gather the LS is without an Artistic Director for a while, is that right?
They were, back in the autumn and for several months afterwards (having failed to appoint from the first batch of interviewees). I was told a couple of months ago that Andrew Burn, previously of the LSO (Education Officer I think) had been appointed, though I haven't heard much more about it since. I don't know much about him and am not at all passing comment on his abilities in making the following comment, but he's apparently going to combine the roles of Artistic Director and Managing Director (previously held by Gillian Moore and Cathy Graham respectively), which in the context of the current discussion does look troublingly like another instance where the Sinfonietta could have broadened its reach rather than centralising all policy-making in the hands of one individual. Undecided

Quote
I count at least three...though perhaps I've not appeared on your radar yet, Richard!  Wink
Well, only you and Richard are here under your real names so maybe you were included! Wink
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
jamesweeks
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« Reply #62 on: 20:13:37, 22-05-2007 »

Ah!

(to all of that)
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martle
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« Reply #63 on: 22:23:35, 22-05-2007 »

Ah!

(to all of that)

Mwahaha! (To all of that)  Wink

No, but seriously. To be factored into all the foregoing is the fact (at least I think it is one) that spnm, nmc, bmic etc. are to be merged, to all intents and purposes. The point here is that this move stems directly from the Arts Council's decision to 'rationalise' the new music sector, in view of the fact that its overall music budget is being slashed by HMG. I'm a bit out of the loop now, but that's how it looked a few months ago.

So, LS survives, the above orgs are 'merged' (not necessarily a bad thing, but we'll see), CMN survives as the only obvious performance-related org under the new dispensation, and we are looking at a probable shift in focus that could well see the hegemony of LS diminish. It'd still be a very, very small world; but within it focuses could shift. Last time I looked, 'the new organisation' (TNO - the working title for the merged institution) would be the 13th largest AC-funded music body in the country. And that's fairly hefty when you consider we're including the opera companies etc. in that equation.

The real downside though, is that smaller ensembles specialising in new music are more likely to encounter rejection of funding applications in the future; although there is plenty of scope for them to benefit from the clout TNO is likely to have.

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Ian Pace
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« Reply #64 on: 22:56:29, 22-05-2007 »

Ian, I don't think anyone is being over-deferential, still less probably disagrees with you; you may be right about OK, I don't know, but it seemed more fruitful to dispense with attacking people personally (which can get bitter and cynical - and gossipy - so quickly, we all know people like that) and address the wider system that allows the problems we've been discussing to arise. I just don't want to talk about whether OK is a nice man or not!

No, I respect that, and it's not really the issue I'm trying to raise. Only about the actions of individuals in their professional capacities. I'm simply saying that it would be over-simplistic to portray Knussen as simply a pawn in a system much bigger than himself. Whilst of course there are other bigger issues at stake, I've not really seen a particularly convincing explanations for the actions of Knussen as a by-product of such things. The wider system does, I believe, place too much power in a few hands (and with TNO that martle describes, that situation looks like it might well get worse - is it really in the public interest to have a Mr/Ms Big who controls all of those institutions jointly?), and some abuse that power for their own personal interests. That's an inevitable situation in any country (probably more so when the stakes are higher, in countries with more generous public subsidy), but at least the organisations have some degree of ultimate democratic accountability, so an issue can be made of such things if so required/desired. Both of the system and the individuals operating it. That's part of what I see as the 'public sphere', as brought up in another thread. Re deference: I can't believe you don't recognise the phenomenon I'm describing, with young composers in particular falling over themselves to crawl to the right people, bragging about who they are 'in' with, idolising those with power, and so on. Not one of the more edifying aspects of the new music world, or the music world in general, and increasingly coming to resemble celebrity culture, with all the emphasis on image, cults of personality, and so on.

To Reiner's point: I was just waiting to read 'moaning minnies' on the end! Still, what do you expect from a KGB torturer?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #65 on: 22:58:21, 22-05-2007 »

Just to add: if we are going to talk about the workings of the music infrastructure in general, should we not have a different thread for that? This was, after all, started as a thread on Knussen (and the claims for him being the greatest composer of all time).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
martle
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« Reply #66 on: 23:04:30, 22-05-2007 »

(and with TNO that martle describes, that situation looks like it might well get worse - is it really in the public interest to have a Mr/Ms Big who controls all of those institutions jointly?),

A small point. A lot of people have spent a LOT of time trying to ensure that, were TNO to come into being, there would BE no Mr or Mrs Big, by thinking through careful democratic, representative and accountable structures. Believe me!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #67 on: 23:09:21, 22-05-2007 »

(and with TNO that martle describes, that situation looks like it might well get worse - is it really in the public interest to have a Mr/Ms Big who controls all of those institutions jointly?),

A small point. A lot of people have spent a LOT of time trying to ensure that, were TNO to come into being, there would BE no Mr or Mrs Big, by thinking through careful democratic, representative and accountable structures. Believe me!

OK, that's very good to hear. Do you have any links you could post here regarding the cuts to the Arts Council music budget, by the way?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
martle
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« Reply #68 on: 23:19:56, 22-05-2007 »


OK, that's very good to hear. Do you have any links you could post here regarding the cuts to the Arts Council music budget, by the way?


Ian, try this for starters - if you can wade through the hype! The bald fact is that all the TNO orgs were told that NO core funding would/ could be guaranteed as from next year. Full stop. Unless something like TNO came into being. The words 'short' and 'curlies' sprang immediately to mind.

Woops, here's the link:

http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/aboutus/spending2007.php
« Last Edit: 23:24:12, 22-05-2007 by martle » Logged

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Ian Pace
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« Reply #69 on: 23:23:53, 22-05-2007 »

Ian,
There are a lots of changes now going with regard to funding etc.
I don't like changes myself. It makes me uncomfortable. But life is about change. So I try to accept it.
The strange thing is that somehow changes happen and then everything (or most things) go usual way. If they want to change things too much there will be too much grumbling. I think the fundings will be may be different, but largely the same and people will learn to get around them.
There is nothing to worry about (As Irish proverb says). I can not say the whole proverb because I forgot it.

Changes do happen, of course, but they are not inevitable. They are, however, if no-one ever makes an issue out of them. Many of those working in the public sector would prefer no questions asked about their actions, decisions, etc. - that's not a luxury anyone should be granted if their work is funded by the taxpayer. I've been having some interesting conversations with some people here in Germany about parallel issues today - certainly such questions as whether new music is a self-serving enterprise for an unchallenged elite is becoming much more of an issue here as well. Somewhere like here is a highly public forum, with numerous people involved in one sense or other in the music world posting (and many others reading). I don't believe it's simply 'grumbling' (or bitching) to discuss major issues that affect such a world in such a forum. One of the ways some of those in power consolidate their position is through simply branding any dissenting voices as 'sour grapes'. Those who benefit from certain systems often seem loath to entertain any legitimate criticisms of it (and some can be seen to suddenly have about-turns when that system works for them).

One viewer of this forum and occasional poster texted me earlier, pointing out that he had only once ever seen a critical review of Knussen. Considering that music of Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono and many other such figures often receive much more mixed reviews, is Knussen thus on a different plane to the rest of them? I'd be surprised if anyone would realistically make that claim (though it seems to have been made on Music Matters). I'm also well aware of the often major discrepancies between what some critics say in private and what they write about certain figures when they know it's 'not done' to say anything critical of them if they still want to be invited to the right parties, reception, etc. Maybe this is just 'gossip', because it's based on information that is not written down? I prefer to call it oral rather than written discourse. A lot of things affecting musical infrastructures are deliberately not written down - that doesn't make them less important as a result.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #70 on: 23:27:31, 22-05-2007 »

Ian, try this for starters - if you can wade through the hype! The bald fact is that all the TNO orgs were told that NO core funding would/ could be guaranteed as from next year. Full stop. Unless something like TNO came into being. The words 'short' and 'curlies' sprang immediately to mind.

Ah right. Just glancing at it, looks very depressing - will read it in detail later. Just wondered - have any petitions, letters to newspapers, and so on and so forth been organised? If not, wondered if some people here would be interested in trying to get some such things together?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #71 on: 10:33:18, 23-05-2007 »

Since I seem to be one of only two participants in the discussion who is actually in the regular business of producing pieces
I count at least three...though perhaps I've not appeared on your radar yet, Richard!  Wink
Please excuse me for this omission, James - it's true that I only knew of your activities as ensemble director, having been abroad for so long, and, in the past year, having spent far too much time on my ridiculous commuting schedule to take much notice of the outside world. After June 19 I shall have no further excuses.
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jamesweeks
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« Reply #72 on: 10:59:58, 23-05-2007 »

Fair enough - it's not like I've exactly hit the big-time just yet...
I just don't know the right people.  Wink
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martle
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« Reply #73 on: 11:03:47, 23-05-2007 »

Fair enough - it's not like I've exactly hit the big-time just yet...
I just don't know the right people.  Wink

James, apparently you only need to know one:



 Cheesy
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richard barrett
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« Reply #74 on: 11:21:38, 23-05-2007 »

Going back to Reiner's "sour grapes" accusation, though...

There are indeed plenty of bunches of sour grapes around, but I think most of them belong to the people who would really like themselves to be in the position of the person whose standing and influence are being discussed, and I don't think that applies to any of the composers taking part in this discussion. I'd go further to say this: whatever one thinks of Knussen's music or his position, it's clear that something has caused his compositional output to slow to a trickle, and the same could be said for George Benjamin, another relatively mainstream-type composer who was also in his time touted as the next big star of British composition (the names change, but the hype doesn't, except that it gets more hysterical). Is there perhaps a pattern emerging here?

However that may be, I for one would prefer (have preferred) to be left alone to put all possible time and energy into developing the music in whatever directions seem necessary, without all the distractions and expectations which attend "hitting the big time".

Regarding Knussen's work itself, for me it hit an absolute peak with his Third Symphony (1973-79), and I find it hard to see anything but retrenchment since then.
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