The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
07:52:42, 02-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7
  Print  
Author Topic: Oliver Knussen on "Music Matters" today  (Read 3195 times)
marbleflugel
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 918



WWW
« Reply #75 on: 22:12:13, 23-05-2007 »

At the risk of stating the implicitly obvious, isnt the situation we'd all prefer a fast-trickle-down culture from the LS?
It would make policy sense to expand the genre by nurturing niche groups around it rather than (as I think has been the case) of thinking in microclimate competitive terms. The culture of place has to change, in that mainstream
groups dance around each other like impacted commuters a square credible mile from the SBC/ Barbican (come to think of it a resident ensemble at The Barbican would be an idea, whomsoever). I know of 1st rate contemporary players who live in London but work in central europe. As is, just over the rd from SBC you'll find the Southbank Sinfonia, a graduate pick-up band who work incredibly hard on mainstream and commissions with reportedly v good results. I ran an ensemble for a year or two, currently in abeyance for the usual reasons, and as and when it
re-consitutes there'll have to be a different ecopnmoic model in place than any of the foregoing. It would be good if the Ac\consulted musicians widely as to the way forward- there has been a bit of a public debate, but a symposium of the kind more-than-essayed here is what's required imho.
« Last Edit: 22:16:42, 23-05-2007 by marbleflugel » Logged

'...A  celebrity  is someone  who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'

Arnold Brown
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #76 on: 10:28:50, 24-05-2007 »

Quote
The culture of place has to change, in that mainstream
groups dance around each other like impacted commuters a square credible mile from the SBC/ Barbican (come to think of it a resident ensemble at The Barbican would be an idea, whomsoever).

This is an extremely well-made point.  Arts Council money comes directly from taxation, which is paid across the land.  However, any attempt to map "provision" against "contribution" would produce some very red faces amongst the providers.  If a taxpayer in Redruth or Telford or St David's were to ask "well, I have paid my shilling, the same shilling as Londoners pay, so where are my Arts?" it would be very hard to answer that question.

Even with London, ss the cost of housing escalates in London, increasing numbers of people are moving to farther-flung points yet working in the capital - but provision for the Arts in the places where people are now living hasn't reflected this at all.
Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
richard barrett
Guest
« Reply #77 on: 10:59:35, 24-05-2007 »

as the cost of housing escalates in London, increasing numbers of people are moving to farther-flung points yet working in the capital - but provision for the Arts in the places where people are now living hasn't reflected this at all.
... and if it did, there might well not be so much pressure to live as close to the capital as possible. Speaking as someone who's moving back there in four weeks' time after an absence of 14 years, one of the important considerations was to find somewhere affordable (which in Berlin terms would read "astronomical") from which central London is still within relatively easy reach, well, I mean not completely offputtingly far away, and the main reason I'd want to be in central London would be for cultural events.

I think there's still a prevailing prejudice in the UK that "regional arts" are necessarily inferior to what goes on in the capital, and the funding situation seems to be calculated so as to make this prejudice a self-fulfilling prophecy. (France is just as bad in this respect.)
Logged
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #78 on: 12:18:27, 24-05-2007 »

Quote
I think there's still a prevailing prejudice in the UK that "regional arts" are necessarily inferior to what goes on in the capital, and the funding situation seems to be calculated so as to make this prejudice a self-fulfilling prophecy. (France is just as bad in this respect.)

I'm sure that's true - too often there's a "good enough fer the likes of them" approach to things which happen outside the capital.  However, ensembles and companies based away from London, in centres where it's a point of pride to outdo what happens in London, have succeeded in dislodging the bedrock of such kinds of prejudice.  The CBSO, the Bournemouth and the Halle are the most obvious examples - and in my own little world, WNO and Opera North do work that's on an international level.  Although it belongs more in the discussion about "work done in nonconventional venues", Graham Vick's extraordinary work with City Of Birmingham Opera leads the way, and London has nothing like it at all.
Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #79 on: 13:14:42, 24-05-2007 »

I think there's still a prevailing prejudice in the UK that "regional arts" are necessarily inferior to what goes on in the capital, and the funding situation seems to be calculated so as to make this prejudice a self-fulfilling prophecy. (France is just as bad in this respect.)

Absolutely, and I wonder if this hasn't been a factor with the radio as well? I don't have figures or details on this, but have noticed a marked decline from programme-making emanating not just from concerts in the regions, but from regional producers as well. It sometimes seems as if simply it's a case of those in London occasionally sending out their microphones to check on what they are doing in the provinces?

One of the great strengths of the Huddersfield festival was that to some extent it was conceived and produced with a degree of independence from what went on in the capital. To build, in a relatively small city with no major previous tradition of contemporary music-making to my knowledge, a festival that provided the primary opportunity in the UK to hear radical new music from many countries (much of it neglected in London for a long time), with a lot of local support and appreciation, was no small achievement. Things seem to have gone downhill in the last few years, but the current artistic director seems to want to attempt to rebuild the local connections, rather than the festival simply providing an away-trip for many from London and a few other places.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #80 on: 13:30:25, 24-05-2007 »

http://www.hcmf.andymayer.net/modules/AMS/?storytopic=5
Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
DracoM
**
Posts: 72


« Reply #81 on: 23:01:27, 24-05-2007 »

If excellence happens beyond the reach / interest of metrocentric opinion and media - and a huge amount does - it can simply go unreported on anything more than local level, thus in a sense it becomes virtually 'invisible'.

The suffocating ignorance / uninterest in truly wonderful stuff beyond the reach or will of the national press is one of the greatest factors those involved in the Arts have to cope with in the UK. Yes, of course events in regions etc are worth doing in their own right, but it means that those initiatives are become an archipelago of relatively isolated successes in a surrounding sea of indifference.

IN the USA, the business and private charity / foundations model of supporting the arts in both big cities and beyond has still not really caught on here. Many businesses in UK still cannot fully grasp the kudos such involvement would bring them, nor the notion of community health and identity it can bring. If you couple that with the insistence on believing that de facto all excellence is largely centred within the M25 is so damagng to national cultural coherence. And what is more, R3 in its latest manifestation seems now to be in the process of specifically disengaging from a hitherto serious role in sustaining national cultural model.

If the Arts Council has indeed got writing on the wall it has not yet read, then what can we suggest replaces it?  Undecided
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #82 on: 23:04:11, 24-05-2007 »

Might there be an issue involving critics here? I've noticed how even in London the critics are less and less willing (or rather, their arts editors are - I realise many of them have their hands tied in this respect) to review concerts that take place outside of the big venues; with respects to non-London concerts, the 'bigness' of the events seems even more paramount. There is a very vague chance that a concert in a smaller venue in London might get reviewed, is there any such chance that would happen in Birmingham or Newcastle or Glasgow (at least a review that would be read nationally, not locally)?
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
Guest
« Reply #83 on: 23:25:54, 24-05-2007 »

Certainly far fewer concerts even in London receive press coverage than used to be the case just a few years ago.

If the Arts Council has indeed got writing on the wall it has not yet read, then what can we suggest replaces it?
I would question the need to have a national arts-funding body of this kind at all (Germany doesn't have one, for example). Why not devolve all of it to the "regions" (of which London would be one) with budgets proportional to the populations of the regions in question?
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #84 on: 23:36:28, 24-05-2007 »

I would question the need to have a national arts-funding body of this kind at all (Germany doesn't have one, for example). Why not devolve all of it to the "regions" (of which London would be one) with budgets proportional to the populations of the regions in question?

Absolutely agree. I wonder if there are any murmurings about this with respect to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, in light of the greater degree of wider devolved power (well, to some extent) in those places nowadays?
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
Guest
« Reply #85 on: 23:41:13, 24-05-2007 »

I would question the need to have a national arts-funding body of this kind at all (Germany doesn't have one, for example). Why not devolve all of it to the "regions" (of which London would be one) with budgets proportional to the populations of the regions in question?

Absolutely agree. I wonder if there are any murmurings about this with respect to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, in light of the greater degree of wider devolved power (well, to some extent) in those places nowadays?
Er, it's already the Arts Council of England you know.
Logged
Reiner Torheit
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #86 on: 00:02:15, 25-05-2007 »

Quote
Why not devolve all of it to the "regions" (of which London would be one) with budgets proportional to the populations of the regions in question?

SIR HUMPHREY APPLEBY: "That would be a truly courageous initiative, Prime-Minister!"

PM: "Really?  As bad as that?"

I can tell you've been out of London for a longish while, Richard, because you didn't have the enormous fun of dealing with the "London Residuary Body", and umpteen local councils,  as there is no longer a body that represents London any more.  So each orchestra, opera-theatre, ensemble etc would have to negotiate separately with Brockley, Brent, Camden, Islington, Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Ealing, Southall...    

Imagine the programmes you'd get soon:  "The Oboes and Bassoons are kindly funded by Hounslow City Council, not including the Cor Anglais which failed the Equal Opportunity requirements, and is funded by the UK Independence Party.  The French Horns are sponsored by the Institut Francais.  The fagotti are sponsored by Islington... "

In principle it's a great idea, although I am slightly worried by the "stakeholder" elements in it as having a Blairish tinge Wink  What I fear is that the Arts are viewed like Chicken-Licken's pie...  everyone wants a piece, provided it doesn't involve them in any outlay.  As soon as the concert isn't IN Tower Hamlets, then Tower Hamlets won't pay a cent... and indeed, why should they?   But it will spell the end for London's orchestras.  

In case you think I am merely having a laugh here,  I can give you a practical example which will leave you banging your head on the keyboard.  The London Borough of Ealing, where I was living prior to my flit eastwards,  has no Arts Centre of its own.  It has the Town Hall where some amateur G&S is performed to truly execrable standards (although the performers evidently enjoy every moment), and it has the Questor's Theatre (a marvellous institution about which the Borough couldn't give a monkey's).  So.... Ealing set out to raise the funds to build AN ARTS CENTRE FOR EALING, and what a rallying cry that was (come election-time, I mean).  Ten years later, all that exists is a string of broken promises and much bitter finger-pointing.  There never was even a site for it (although the old Ealing Studios film lot sits empty and abandoned - soon to become luxury apartments, 'natch).

But hang on...  take the #65 bus from Ealing Broadway just five stops, and 55 yards outside Ealing's boundary is... the Brentford Waterman's Arts Centre (proprietors: L.B.of Brentford), a superbly-equipped venue with a 350-seat theatre (complete with an orchestra pit), a cinema, another small performance space,  plus a potentially nice caff (if only it were ever, ehem, open...) with balconies outside looking onto the wooded banks of the River Thames.  Idyllic. Perfect.  But it was 55 yards behind enemy lines for the Burghers of Ealing.  I used to cycle there in 12 mins, they had super repertory film programming.  Then they started surcharging non-Brentford residents attending events.

The term "Ealing Comedy" might have been invented for this absurd spat (which still continues a decade later, with the poor ol' Watermans now in a shocking state, it appeared to have closed-down when I last passed by on the bus).

And if that's what the local councils can do for the Arts on a local basis...  imagine the high jinx they could get up to if national funding were devolved to them?   I predict you'd see fewer concerts, and more Mayoral Bentleys.
« Last Edit: 00:04:51, 25-05-2007 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #87 on: 00:08:56, 25-05-2007 »

I would question the need to have a national arts-funding body of this kind at all (Germany doesn't have one, for example). Why not devolve all of it to the "regions" (of which London would be one) with budgets proportional to the populations of the regions in question?

Absolutely agree. I wonder if there are any murmurings about this with respect to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, in light of the greater degree of wider devolved power (well, to some extent) in those places nowadays?
Er, it's already the Arts Council of England you know.

Yes, but don't the other Arts Council bodies receive their money from Central Government, rather than from (or via) the assemblies of their respective regions? I suppose that for the latter to work successfully, it would need a much wider devolution of fund-raising power to those regions (in the case of the Welsh Assembly, whilst not knowing much detail, I get the impression their fund-raising powers are pretty small)?
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
Guest
« Reply #88 on: 00:29:59, 25-05-2007 »

Quote
Why not devolve all of it to the "regions" (of which London would be one) with budgets proportional to the populations of the regions in question?

SIR HUMPHREY APPLEBY: "That would be a truly courageous initiative, Prime-Minister!"

PM: "Really?  As bad as that?"

I can tell you've been out of London for a longish while, Richard
Note though that your quote from my post reads "the 'regions' (of which London would be one)", ie. I wasn't suggesting for one moment that devolution ought to extend to the level of boroughs. All I'm doing actually is thinking aloud about how to address some of the issues which have come up on this thread.

The basic problem seems to me much more fundamental. Earlier in history, such things as orchestras were paid for by wealthy persons (princes etc.) and institutions (the Church, principally) and the people making the "funding decisions" were the same people who actually wanted the orchestra to exist and who wanted a new symphony by Haydn or whoever every couple of weeks. Now that wealth and cultural literacy are divided in a different way, the funding decisions are no longer taken by people who are or might be interested in the work being produced (I don't know anyone who owns an orchestra), but by government bureaucrats on their behalf, who often seem to behave according to agendas of their own which have little to do with the music or its audience but actually stand between them (your story about Ealing and Brentford is a good example). Removing this "obstacle" would appear to require a more democratic kind of society than the one we have.
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #89 on: 00:52:48, 25-05-2007 »

The basic problem seems to me much more fundamental. Earlier in history, such things as orchestras were paid for by wealthy persons (princes etc.) and institutions (the Church, principally) and the people making the "funding decisions" were the same people who actually wanted the orchestra to exist and who wanted a new symphony by Haydn or whoever every couple of weeks. Now that wealth and cultural literacy are divided in a different way, the funding decisions are no longer taken by people who are or might be interested in the work being produced (I don't know anyone who owns an orchestra), but by government bureaucrats on their behalf, who often seem to behave according to agendas of their own which have little to do with the music or its audience but actually stand between them (your story about Ealing and Brentford is a good example). Removing this "obstacle" would appear to require a more democratic kind of society than the one we have.

Whilst being all in favour in principle of what you propose, I suppose the question is which people should take such funding decisions instead, and on what basis they should be anointed to such a role (and how exactly they could be made democratically accountable)? Could it be at all possible to have direct elections at least for the leading members (or some sort of council) of arts funding bodies?

One potential (or actual) problem is the fact that the democratic process might not necessarily lead to the election of people who necessarily have any more interest in the work being produced? Inevitably a democratic process has to allow for the legitimate possibility of electing individuals who might want to remove much funding from orchestras (or other musical institutions of whatever type) and allocate it elsewhere. Not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with that, if the decision is arrived at democratically.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7
  Print  
 
Jump to: