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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #45 on: 23:46:52, 01-09-2007 » |
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Or is that distinction already part of what you're trying to draw attention to, CD?
It is, already, but it's nice to have it summarized (better) by someone else. Thanks |
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #46 on: 23:49:18, 01-09-2007 » |
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In this context, I think gesture refers simply to the physical action that produces a sound. But in the sense that t-i-n presents it, which is very common when talking about new music, it is interesting because it gives a certain importance to contour, as well as rhythm, which are arguably the defining attributes of a gesture.
But these two definitions are not easily separable, and I think the music in question derives much of its creative impetus from the friction between these definitions. I hope some of the practitioners will find the time to chime in soon with specifics, or do their own part in straightening me out. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #47 on: 23:56:59, 01-09-2007 » |
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In this context, I think gesture refers simply to the physical action that produces a sound. But in the sense that t-i-n presents it, which is very common when talking about new music, it is interesting because it gives a certain importance to contour, as well as rhythm, which are arguably the defining attributes of a gesture.
Contour. That's the word I was looking for! Thanks. Like CD (if I've understood him correctly), I'm not sure that we have managed to disentangle the two senses sufficiently for gesture to refer simply to the physical action. It seems to me that it's mainly the other sense that's in operation in the first of Colin's useful points, whereas his second point makes a clearer distinction between the two senses (albeit admittedly to draw attention to the different levels of 'dissonance' with which they can be conjoined in the performance of music): 1. Horizontally, if you will, "gesture" can be – and, on the turf of the Egregious Eight, often is – an information-carrying stratum in which transformations of a single gesture, for example, and relationships between different gestures have developmental significance. In other words, the physical gestures (and, necessarily, the sounding results) are capable of presenting an unfolding, just as sound (i.e. divorced from gesture) can.
2. Vertically, on the other hand, gestures are things that we do all the time in everyday life, so naturally gestures on the stage (whether holding a skull or playing the flute) are packed with associative connotations, some specific (e.g. a "casting a fishing rod"-type gesture) and some quite general (e.g. a "violent" gesture). These connotations are sometimes "consonant" with and sometimes at odds with the sound that they produce. One supplementary question for Aaron in particular might be whether, and in what sense, the (diachronic) relation between physical gestures is made into a parameter in his music, or whether despite his interest in making the performing means part of the musical result this is something that he regards as primarily possible on the local level. |
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« Last Edit: 00:01:11, 02-09-2007 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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time_is_now
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« Reply #48 on: 00:27:11, 02-09-2007 » |
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The pre-history of this particular tendency might also be a subject of interest....
Somewhere embedded deep within my memory and currently resisting clear recall is the thought of one or more pieces which are described by the composer specifically in terms of a disjunction between degrees of difficulty to perform and the actual sounding result. I'm beginning to have a feeling it may be Ferneyhough's Kurze Schatten II ... |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #49 on: 05:57:02, 02-09-2007 » |
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My argument, quite excessively briefly, is that there is in fact no real distinction b/t the physical gesture and the aural gesture. Sonic gestural identities are almost entirely dependent upon the physical actions employed to create those sounds. If anyone's interested, I wrote about it at length here: http://www.wolke-verlag.de/new_music.htm (in vol. 2), complete w/ some historical references to some fascinating bits of Scarlatti. I'm still determined, though, to put some sort of condensed version here online sometime very soon. Please forgive my continued procrastination. My current interests revolve around somehow reconciling my view of the link b/t the physical and the aural in determining a musical object's morphological identity with Denis Smalley's theories of spectromorphology, which offer a rather substantial counterargument. But I'm afraid that particular line of exploration will have to stay under wraps for a future publication .... (And by that I don't so much mean that I'm trying to keep my thoughts secret as that my thoughts at the moment are far too half-baked for public consumption.) |
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« Last Edit: 06:05:38, 02-09-2007 by aaron cassidy »
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time_is_now
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« Reply #50 on: 13:01:45, 02-09-2007 » |
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Thanks Aaron. That's another €50 in the Wolke-Verlag coffers (thought I might as well get Vol 1 and read up on Carter's Concerto for Orchestra while I'm at it). You'll have some arguing to do, here or in the article, before you convince me that 'there is in fact no real distinction b/t the physical gesture and the aural gesture', but I'm certainly open to having the debate ... PS. While we're at the book recommendations thing, and talking of Scarlatti, have you read this most excellent volume? |
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« Last Edit: 13:23:29, 02-09-2007 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #51 on: 13:09:44, 02-09-2007 » |
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my thoughts at the moment are far too half-baked for public consumption.)
That doesn't stop the rest of us! |
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xyzzzz__
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« Reply #52 on: 13:29:04, 02-09-2007 » |
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Just this morning I ws thinking about starting a thread on the 'Music Appreciation' sub-section that ws roughly going to express my dissatisfaction when trying to pick up differences on the Flute recordings of both Ferneyhough and Dench, having not seen any performances of any of the works on those recordings (mentioned in passing in msg #4). More a 'help me to listen better plz!' to that duo of recordings, or whether its actually right to place them together in my mind just bcz they're from a pair of composers that are bracketed together. What do ppl think of what's on that Wiki 'New Complexity' page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_ComplexityAlthough terms are attractive and neat for listeners (like me) it kind of does stop talk of differences in 'complexity', or that music is more often about how 'complex' it is (using complex in scare quotes is another problem). x-post: 'thoughts 1/8 baked 24-7!' |
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xyzzzz__
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« Reply #53 on: 13:34:20, 02-09-2007 » |
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #54 on: 13:37:00, 02-09-2007 » |
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My argument, quite excessively briefly, is that there is in fact no real distinction b/t the physical gesture and the aural gesture. Sonic gestural identities are almost entirely dependent upon the physical actions employed to create those sounds.
My current interests revolve around somehow reconciling my view of the link b/t the physical and the aural in determining a musical object's morphological identity with Denis Smalley's theories of spectromorphology...
I am sorry that circumstances have required you to be brief, as the resulting condensation is liable to cause a lot of confusion. I will refrain from replying in-depth until I read the Scarlatti-Wolke article. Still, briefly: I don't think this is an 'argument' so much as a 'premise' or even a 'delusion.' As an argument, it's completely untenable. As a premise, I think it could make for some very interesting music (and I think occasionally it does, from what I know of your work!), in which case it's delusional qualities are immaterial... Why is it untenable as an argument? Well, because of COURSE there is a distinction. If you were to produce a physical gesture on a violin and then produce the same physical gesture on a plastic replica with plastic strings, you'd get different aural results. Even more so if it were a crystal violin that shattered on impact with a hairy bow. In fact, the word "almost" in your second sentence turns the whole 'argument' in the direction of the vortex, as it tends to contradict the equation made in the first sentence. I reject the notion of a sound's 'morphological identity' unless one accepts that it has several such identities depending on whether one is looking at the sounding result or the action or perhaps an infrared scan of the action as it takes place, or an EEG readout, or a book on how the gesture would have been impossible if an elephant had stepped on a butterfly in 6300 B.C.E. In fact, it's when these different morphological identities seem to convey different connotations that it starts to get interesting, i.e. when the EEG readout is off the charts, but the performer is just standing there "idly" flicking her wrist! See how this is not a critique of your music, that I find thought-provoking, but of your very brief hypothesis? I will have more to say when time_is_now has loaned me his copy of that Wolke volume. |
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #55 on: 13:46:47, 02-09-2007 » |
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my thoughts at the moment are far too half-baked for public consumption.)
That doesn't stop the rest of us! Doesn't stop us from what? Baking? Consuming? Having thoughts? Being cryptic? |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #56 on: 15:03:24, 02-09-2007 » |
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Yikes! No, I haven't seen that, but I must get my hands on it once a) I have anything remotely resembling $95 to spend on anything and b) I have already completed the transatlantic house move (no book buying (or anything buying!) as long as anything I buy here I have to figure out how to move there!). |
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #58 on: 15:18:56, 02-09-2007 » |
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I know we have the book, I've checked it out before.. I was speaking metaphorically. Err... facetiously.
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #59 on: 16:45:05, 02-09-2007 » |
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I'm trying hard to work out what I think of this. My position is usually that, for me, there's no point in any musical action that isn't intended to produce a specific audible result. In the case of improvisation, or pieces like Aus den Sieben Tagen I still feel there's a clear relationship between the performers' actions and the sounds that result. And I think I agree with whoever it was that pointed out that straying further from result-oriented notation goes into the realm of theatre (or something like that). In fact it strikes me as a kind of Performance Art, which can of course be interesting but I'm not sure where the composer comes in unless they are actually doing the performance as well. When I saw this: My argument, quite excessively briefly, is that there is in fact no real distinction b/t the physical gesture and the aural gesture. Sonic gestural identities are almost entirely dependent upon the physical actions employed to create those sounds. ...my reaction was  The second sentence seems to add up fine, but the first IMO takes the concept to an illogical extreme. From the point of view of the audience, there's certainly a huge difference between "physical actions" and "physical gesture" - isn't there?? Certain physical gestures in music do have a strong corellation with the sounds they produce, particularly on piano, string instruments and trombones  . But as a wind player I would say that the visible gesture of playing (or singing, for that matter) has a fairly distant relationship with the audible gestures in the music. |
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