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Author Topic: New to Record Players - please help!  (Read 626 times)
stuart macrae
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« on: 15:48:29, 01-09-2007 »

Hi folks,

I got my first turntable recently (the first one that belongs to me, anyway): it's a Project Debut III with factory-fitted Ortofon OM5E cartridge.

I was initially pleased with it, probably because I wasn't playing whole sides, but now I've noticed that all my records sound significantly more distorted near the centre of the record - annoyingly so, in fact. I've set up the tracking weight, anti-skate weight, azimuth and cartridge alignment/overhang as per the instructions (with the provided alignment protractor). The turntable and tonearm are as near perfectly level as I can manage. I've also used a Hi-Fi News test record and the consistency problem is particularly noticable there.

I suspect the problem may be that the stylus doesn't appear to be aligned properly with the cartridge body: it noticably moves to the left (looking from the front) when it comes into contact with the playing surface (even on an ungrooved patch). Here is a (fuzzy - sorry no tripod!) picture:


Despite the blurring I think it's possible to see that the stylus is out of alignment with the cartridge body.

I'd be really grateful for any advice on this. Have I made a mistake? Or is it a faulty stylus/cantilever and should I return it to the shop?

Thanks,
Stuart
« Last Edit: 16:28:16, 01-09-2007 by stuart macrae » Logged
John W
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« Reply #1 on: 16:28:15, 01-09-2007 »

Hmmm, so if in the photo the stylus is facing us but the line of the tone-arm is with that screw on the right, the stylus is about 45 deg out of alignment!?!


John W
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #2 on: 16:37:30, 01-09-2007 »

Can of worms time, Stuart: tracking distortion towards the end of a disc is one of the nightmares of vinyldom, a prime cause of player paranoia. However, this may help: the HFN test discs are really aimed at significantly higher grade equipment than you are currently using on the one hand, and on the other, alignment of eliptical styli on their cantilevers often leaves something to be desired.

Have you set the playing weight towards its maximum? With a budget cartridge it's very unlikely that it will perform well unless it's right at the top of the permitted weight. Are the mounting screws that hold the cartridge holder to the arm 'b*ll*ck tight' (as a highly respected manufacturer of turntables not a million miles from where you are right now would encourage all his dealers' staff in training)? The Ortofon body may be contributing to the problem as well; it's light, flexible and resonant, and will tend to exaggerate any high frequency problems that arise. Try varying the azimuth a touch either way and see if that improves things; as you say, the stylus/cantilever assembly may be out of true.

What's the deck standing on? That can make a substantial difference to the overall sound. Turntable set-up is an art, not a science, with many variables. As a last parting shot for this first post, I should just mention that many LPs have inbuilt end-of-side distortion, a strange by-product of the fact that they track from the outside inwards, yet a goodly proportion of music becomes louder and more complex towards its conclusion, so that the most difficult music to reproduce occurs precisely where the system is at its weakest, and the most complex squiggles in the grooves are further compromised by being the most closely packed (because the LP speed is constant, the grooves at the start of the side are much longer for each revolution than those at the centre). (And that's one of the major reasons why CDs play from the inside out, and don't have constant RPM, slowing down as the laser moves outwards.)

Not a lot of help so far, but some tips to try....
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #3 on: 16:37:51, 01-09-2007 »

 Undecided John, it's a straight tone-arm (as opposed to one with an offset), so the offset has to be between the line of the cartridge and the line of the arm. That's the way it was set up when I bought it, anyway.
                                                             
                                _/

The screws are adjustable by a few degrees - it's the slight angle between the stylus and cartridge body that concerns me.
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John W
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« Reply #4 on: 16:43:48, 01-09-2007 »

Yikes, I'm not familiar with that set-up, my Goldring and Shure cartridges/styli are obviously low-tech  Cheesy
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #5 on: 16:45:52, 01-09-2007 »

Thanks for these tips! I can see a fun-packed few days ahead!   Wink  Tongue

No, the screws are not b*****k tight, I'll see to that immediately.
And no, I've stuck with the 17.5 mN playing weight recommended in the manual, but I'll try pushing it up and see if it helps.

Now I know why people spend serious money on such things.  Sad

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stuart macrae
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« Reply #6 on: 16:46:35, 01-09-2007 »

Yikes, I'm not familiar with that set-up

Thanks for replying all the same, John.  Smiley
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #7 on: 16:56:07, 01-09-2007 »

Stuart: I dealt with turntable arm and cartridge rigs costing up to well over two grand in the eighties, but even at that price brilliant performance, so far as tracking was concerned, was not a given; many of the exotic moving-coil cartidges just couldn't track certain things ever (but Jings did they sound wonderful on what they could manage!).

If the turntable came from a reputable dealer who specialises in turntables, then the chances are that he'll have a proper high-powered stylus microscope. If you have any doubts at all, march it back and ask him to inspect it. If it didn't, well.... 
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #8 on: 17:00:56, 01-09-2007 »

Because the LP speed is constant, the grooves at the start of the side are much longer for each revolution than those at the centre.
I always wondered about this! Great to hear it from an expert.

It also surprises me, if one considers that the hypothetical mechanism that would have to be built to cause the turntable to slow down as the needle approaches the middle can't be prohibitively complicated to invent... and yet that would mean the turntable can only play records cut especially for it, eh?
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #9 on: 17:34:08, 01-09-2007 »

I think a bit of extra azimuth adjustment helped a bit - the stylus no longer deviates so much to one side. Ditto a little extra weight  (but too much and the cartridge bottomed out on the record - ouch!)

Reputable dealer: tick
Turntable specialist: nope
Extra care warranty: bought and paid for, so they should at least have a good look at it for me free of charge. If they say there's nothing wrong with it, I'll probably just upgrade the cartridge.

BTW Ron, I remember you mentioning "the right turntable at the right price" a while ago. I won't ask about the price, but what's the turntable?
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #10 on: 18:07:35, 01-09-2007 »

It could be one of several, Stuart: possibly another Linn-Sondek (I had one in the late seventies which eventually was replaced by a Gyrodec, which is too early a model to benefit from all the later upgrades) or possibly a Roksan, Pink Triangle or an Orbe, maybe even one of the higher Regas; and if one of the SME turntables came my way, well, that would be a hard thing to turn down, too. I am aware that many of them are being sold at inflated prices, hence my original comment.

 I have a high-end manufacturer breathing down my neck to start transcribing LPs for him; I'm aware of the sort of combination I'm looking for, and the particular weak points of many set-ups which appear wonderful on paper, yet don't behave that well in practice: the requirements for transcription are subtly different from those for standard Hi-fi performance. Despite the pressure, I'm not in a huge rush: my digital recording learning-curve is starting to level out now, but sound restoration is another black art with even more of a rocket-trajectory curve: I'm playing with two different software packages at present, and I've not left the gravitational field with either of them yet. 
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gradus
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« Reply #11 on: 12:15:09, 27-02-2008 »

Looking at the photo it seems as though there might be a need for a bias compensator, that is to offset the tendency of the stylus to be pulled towards the centre of the record and out of alignment.  I don't know if this pickup arm allows such a device but I know them from the old SME design.  Perhaps there is an after-market accessory?
I always found end of side distortion unavoidable with many lps, particularly where the music is loud or has sharp transients, even Decca at their finest couldn't entirely solve this problem.  I like vinyl sound but digital media has some clear advantages over the older technology.  You pays your money......
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