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Author Topic: One bit recording technology  (Read 562 times)
ariosto
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« on: 18:46:37, 01-05-2008 »

I just wonder if anyone knows anything about 1 bit technology?

I understand that it is used for recording SACD's - and it is supposed to be the best.

You can now buy a portable recorder using a 40 GB hard drive which can use this 1 bit system and can also convert to, for example 24 bit 96KHz. This is the Korg MR-1000. The specs are pretty amazing, and can be seen at www.studiospares.com for example.

In the remote possibility that we may replace (rather than repair) our Tascam DAT recorder, this machine could be a possibility (It is about £769 incl VAT).

Any opinions or experience with this machine?
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Ariosto
Ron Dough
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« Reply #1 on: 20:57:26, 01-05-2008 »

No experience as yet, though I'm tempted (but firmly resisting until I've had a chance to play with one or talk to someone I can trust who has). Were I running a professional studio rather than a hobby enterprise, I'd probably have one already, mind. Wink
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ahh
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« Reply #2 on: 21:31:37, 01-05-2008 »

Slightly off topic (but also advertised on ariosto's link page), on another thread Bryn was toying with buying the Zoom H4 (or H2 -can't remember) I'm also thinking about this recorder for compact and speedy field recording. Anyone used one of these?
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SimonSagt!
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« Reply #3 on: 21:44:52, 01-05-2008 »

Yes. The H4. Recommended.

It's compact, intuitive to operate and you can vary the quality you need depending on how long you want to record for and the type of sound you are recording.

At it's best quality, though it doesn't give you long (IIRC about 40 minutes), it's superb and is fine for all but real commercial stuff.

It's also very flexible in the that it can be used with other equiment. Ours was £200 via some firm on the net last year.

My only criticism might be that the instruction booklet is a bit long-winded and convoluted - but as it's so intuitive to operate, a brief look, plus a quick demo from a mate, was all I needed.

S-S!
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increpatio
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« Reply #4 on: 22:06:32, 01-05-2008 »

here was me thinking this was about 1-bit synthesizers.

I wasn't aware of the one-bit wassit that ye're talking about though.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #5 on: 22:14:17, 01-05-2008 »

It's a long while since we've seen you here, SS!

I use an H2 rather than a 4, and find it a useful little tool: as I've mentioned before, its biggest drawback is that its Line In level is non-standard, so that it clips if you feed it a standard linlevel signal, but once attenuated it's fine - I use it to transfer cassettes to digital when it's not being used for field work or for voice-overs.
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spatny
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« Reply #6 on: 07:08:46, 02-05-2008 »

Hmmm,

Very interesting. I am looking for reviews. There is one on eBay for £660.00 - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320243423968
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Bryn
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« Reply #7 on: 07:51:33, 02-05-2008 »

Slightly off topic (but also advertised on ariosto's link page), on another thread Bryn was toying with buying the Zoom H4 (or H2 -can't remember) I'm also thinking about this recorder for compact and speedy field recording. Anyone used one of these?

I got an H4 about a year ago, and an H2 last autumn. The H2 is very handy and compact and can do a form of surround recording using its 120 degree 'rear' and 90 degree 'front' facing mics. The H4, however, is my preferred recorder, since it can take decent condenser mics and provide them with full 48 volt phantom power. Both devices, however, are designed down to a price and there have been recent concerns about clock drift with them. This is mainly a problem for use in video work, and there are ways of compensating for it in post production, but it is worth thinking about.

There is a active discussion forum for the H4 and H2 at http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=a4dbee8b846291e10dfceb25eec1f209

I too am rather tempted by the Korg.

Oh, and to follow up SS!'s point about maximum file duration, at the top rate of 96/24, the 2GB file limit means a recording time of 62 minutes 8 seconds. I know because I accidentally left my H4 set to 96/24 for a recording job a couple of weeks ago. The session went straight through for about 65 minutes, and I had to do a retake of the last few minutes as the file closed automatically at the 2GB limit, leaving me with a 62 minutes  8 seconds initial take. In such circumstances the H4 does open a new file and continue to record, but a gap of around 20 seconds (sometimes rather longer) occurs before the new file is opened. Since tests reported on the forum linked to above have indicated that on the H4 there is little if anything to be gained from using the 96k sample rate, rather then 48k, it might be best to regard 2 hours, 4 minutes and 16seconds as the practical upper file duration. With the appropriate firmware upgrade(s), SDHC cards of up to 16GB can be used, but the 2GB limit on individual files remains.
« Last Edit: 08:14:22, 02-05-2008 by Bryn » Logged
ahh
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« Reply #8 on: 08:01:57, 02-05-2008 »

Thanks SS, Ron and Bryn. Very helpful!

Hope Arisoto gets what he needs.
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ariosto
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« Reply #9 on: 11:13:12, 05-05-2008 »

Here is a link to the FULL INFO - re 1 bit recording at a sample rate of 5.6 MHz from the Korg website. It is a 10 page .pdf document. Hope it is of interest - I'm very impressed so far.

http://www.korg.co.uk/products/digital_recording/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf

Is this machine worth getting? Looks like a world beater?

Future proof?
« Last Edit: 12:22:57, 05-05-2008 by ariosto » Logged

Ariosto
Bryn
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« Reply #10 on: 17:04:43, 15-05-2008 »

May I refer those reading this thread to message 52 in this thread at TOP? I think I will stick with the H4 for extreme portability, the Alesis Masterlink for when there is room for it and a mixer, and the Edirol FA-66 (which also offers 192k sampling in 2 channel mode) when I can get it to talk to one of my laptops (Sad), at least for the time being.

On the subject of the H4 though, it's best to use external mics when you can. If you use the integrated mics you get a quiet burst of digital splurge a few times each second (with a periodicity of approximately 0.28 seconds when using 48/16) as shown here:



However, the periodicity varies with sample rate, but not in a simple linear relationship to either time or number of samples.
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #11 on: 17:41:49, 15-05-2008 »

I can confirm the periodic digital peaks Bryn mentions - My recorded sound files look a lot like his. I've never been able to hear them though - I can only see that they're there in sound editing programs. Still, they might interfere with any processing one wanted to do with the files (ie they might be exaggerated by certain digital processes) so it's good to be aware that they're there.
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ariosto
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« Reply #12 on: 09:47:51, 26-05-2008 »

I have done a lot of research and I am now of the opinion that 1 bit recording technology has a lot of problems!!

In fact the Korg explanation sheet that I linked to leaves a lot of questions and answers out (surprise, surprise!).

Experts reckon that even the 5.6 MHz sampling rate is not high enough, and high sampling rates have their own problems too. Also the bit depth.

But the area which is most contentious is in editing. There are no proper editing programs to use, so the 1 bit 5.6MHz files will have to be converted in to something else, say 24 bit 96KHz. Converting back to 1 bit again is another process which will degrade too.

So the whole point about not having to use DACs/ADC's is a bit silly. Experts still reckon that 24 bit 192/96KHz is the best way to get excellent sound. (Or even 24 bit 44.1KHz)

So I am abandoning any thought of this machine and favouring a machine that records 24bit/44.1/96/192 KHz and has good mic preamps. All this for Brahms!! (In the first instance).
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Ariosto
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