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Author Topic: Building a Library - Five weeks of The Ring!  (Read 1771 times)
opilec
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« Reply #30 on: 09:32:45, 13-01-2008 »

Solti was dismissed in one sentence also, because Handley found the orchestra too dominant and the singers uninvolved. Maybe there's some truth in that but I would have thought that it still had enough virtues for it to have been considered a little more.

right.
i have, however, no doubt that the Solti Gotterdammerung will come out top.

I wouldn't bank on it, tonybob. Last time Deathridge reviewed Gotterdammerung for BaL (in 1992), Haitink came top.
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #31 on: 10:18:49, 13-01-2008 »


[/quote]

I wouldn't bank on it, tonybob. Last time Deathridge reviewed Gotterdammerung for BaL (in 1992), Haitink came top.
[/quote]

The Haitink set had only just been released at that point....so, it occupied the same position then as the Keilberth does today. I think Solti's Gotterdammerung would be most people's top recommendation, even if they feel like being original.  It remains, forty odd years after the event, a stunning audio experience and Culshaw and co finally got the balance between voice/orchestra right.  And you have a cast all at the height of their powers, with Windgassen giving his best performance on record.
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #32 on: 11:20:00, 13-01-2008 »

Hang on, IGI - the Solti Rheingold came first, in 1959

Whoops. Can't imagine why I'd always thought Rheingold was recorded after the others!

Last time Deathridge reviewed Gotterdammerung for BaL (in 1992), Haitink came top.

Even with Eva Marton's Brünnhilde?! When I first investigated the Ring, I wanted a modern studio recording and it was largely hearing Marton's efforts that persuaded me to invest in Levine's Met cycle rather than the Haitink! Götterdämmerung seems to be regarded as the best of the Levine Ring.
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Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
opilec
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« Reply #33 on: 11:30:45, 13-01-2008 »

Concerning the George London/Hans Hotter business: might one of the reasons have been that Hotter was at that time an EMI artist? Certainly that seems one of the reasons for the contractual wranglings behind the Keilberth Ring.

There are plenty of instances of cast changes in the course of a Ring cycle, especially if recorded over a period of time (thinking of the Karajan cycle: two different Wotans, Siegfrieds, Brünnhildes, Mimes ...).

I think there might have been two different Wotans in the 1952 Bayreuth Ring. And even today, the character tenor who plays Loge usually pops up again as Mime in Siegfried. This happened less in the days when "retired" Heldentenors or lyric tenors played Loge: Suthaus, Svanholm, Lustig, even Windgassen.
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opilec
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« Reply #34 on: 11:47:56, 13-01-2008 »

Am I the only one for whom this programme seems to be about not so much Building a Library as Culling a Collection?  Roll Eyes
Cheesy You ought to suggest that title to them, ollie!

I'm not sure that's how the contributors really intend it, but it's certainly how many of the listeners seem to interpret it!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #35 on: 16:15:55, 13-01-2008 »

I think Solti's Gotterdammerung would be most people's top recommendation, even if they feel like being original.  It remains, forty odd years after the event, a stunning audio experience and Culshaw and co finally got the balance between voice/orchestra right.  And you have a cast all at the height of their powers, with Windgassen giving his best performance on record.

I don't disagree with any of that, but isn't it interesting that it was after hearing the recording of Gotterdammerung that Birigit Nilsson complained her voice was swamped by the orchestra? It sounds all right to me, even if it wouldn't have hurt to project her a little more. But if we grant that the recording team got it right in Gotterdammerung, how did they then go on to get it wrong in Die Walkure (if Handley is to be believed)? I'm not saying Walkure is perfect in all respects, but for sound quality I think it shows it was made during what I think was a golden age for Decca.

I intend to get my turntable fixed up again and listen to Karajan's Siegfried.

One last thing. These Buiding a Library programmes seem to have generated more than the usual interest, both on this board and on the BBC Radio 3 one. Is there a correlation between those who are interested in Wagner's Ring and those who are interested in internet message boards?
« Last Edit: 16:27:51, 13-01-2008 by Tony Watson » Logged
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #36 on: 00:06:03, 14-01-2008 »

I think the Ring tends to excite comment, wherever it's discussed.  And with recorded versions, there's the added factor that no ONE recording can ever be considered 'the best' (more so with the Ring than with any other work).  There's also the fact that the LP era missed the so-called 'golden age' of Wagnerian singing, so we can only enjoy Melchior et al in mono and with attendant crackles; which gives the Michael Tanners of this world plenty to carp about when it comes to reviewing modern studio recordings.

As to the Decca Walkure balance....it's fine, I'd say, though as a performance it does fall somewhat short: James King and Solti don't really seem to get on tempo-wise and Hans Hotter, though still good, is not quite what he was.  But Regine Crespin's Sieglinde (best on record, imo) makes it all worthwhile.  Smiley
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #37 on: 20:46:59, 19-01-2008 »

I've just been reading the comments on this morning's Building a Library (Siegfried) over on the Radio 3 MB and it seems there are many dissatisfied listeners - mainly because there were a few factual errors and because they felt his final choice was illogical, as well as the usual complaints that certain versions were not considered in enough depth, if at all.

In the first place this just highlights the problem of trying to review in one hour about 20 versions of a work that lasts for four hours. And the errors, though unfortunate, did not invalidate his comments, I think. Whenever the recording was made or whatever the singer's name was, you still hear what you hear.  And as for plumping for Keilberth, he did explain at the end that he thought it had the virtues of its closest rivals, plus a bit more.

I enjoyed the programme and I think the carping over there is over the top. But perhaps that's because I'm a Keilberth fan (a fashionable stand, I know). There were complaints about the brass but I don't think they're as out of tune as some maintain; the first trumpet is just a little coarse at times rather than being "horribly flat". I listened to the final part of the Keilberth, from the point where Siegfried breaks the Wanderer's spear, this afternoon and I thought it was a glorious performance. I'm currently listening to the same thing on my Karajan LPs and while it sounds very well, it just doesn't have the same dramatic impact, in my ever-so humble etc.
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opilec
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« Reply #38 on: 21:17:12, 19-01-2008 »

I agree with you completely about the Keilberth Siegfried, Tony. And that one, of all the Ring operas, is certainly the glorious highpoint of that cycle (with Götterdämmerung and the others not far behind). It's my favourite cycle at the moment. Can't understand the fuss about the brass, which I think have plenty of character even if a shade rough at times.

As for today's programme, the mistakes were careless, but the number of them makes it a bit more serious than just the odd one or two. I felt it started off well, but then went rather downhill. Of course, no-one's perfect, and a review programme like that must be tricky even when you're not trying to cram twenty versions of a four-hour opera into just one hour. But you don't want to be getting basic facts wrong when a crowd of eager Wagnerians is listening in! Wink
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #39 on: 21:47:47, 19-01-2008 »

I think I'm going to have to invest in this Keilberth at some stage!  Smiley

I found this morning's BaL frustrating in Roderick Swanston's approach, which seemed to pick the Keilberth out of almost nowhere. The criticisms surrounding the factual errors at the R3 boards are entirely justified - there were so many, I wonder who (if anyone) was responsible for checking scripts?! He did consider a variety of recordings however (good to finally hear some of the Fisch Adelaide cycle). I hope they take seriously the suggestion over there (by wilf) to get all four reviewers round the table at the end of all this and hold a discussion about the respective choices; it could prove fascinating listening.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #40 on: 23:24:33, 19-01-2008 »

If you listen to BaL to be informed of facts, and the programme does have an educational role, then this morning's mistakes were indeed serious and highly regrettable. But they did not stop my enjoying this one more than the previous two. If you listen to BaL to be informed of the best performances, then I think the programme achieved its aim very well. If you are impressed by a recording, it doesn't make any difference when it was made or who made it.

And whereas it was right to point out the errors, I just think those posters "over there" are making too much of them. I also thought the fuss that ensued when the sword motif was mistakenly called the spear motif in the Rheingold review was out of proportion.
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tonybob
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« Reply #41 on: 11:30:07, 20-01-2008 »

As for today's programme, the mistakes were careless, but the number of them makes it a bit more serious than just the odd one or two.

Did i just hear him say "Barenboims ring from 1973" Huh
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opilec
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« Reply #42 on: 12:30:58, 20-01-2008 »

I also thought the fuss that ensued when the sword motif was mistakenly called the spear motif in the Rheingold review was out of proportion.
Absolutely! But you know what these Wagnerians are like ...  Cheesy

Did i just hear him say "Barenboims ring from 1973" Huh
Among other clangers, er, yes.

Ultimately, as Tony says, it's the performances that matter, and I think the right one was chosen -- though there are plenty at TOP who disagree! Wink

I liked Swanston's general style of presentation, but his reasoning rather less, and it's a shame his arguments in favour of the Keilberth recording weren't put forward a bit more cogently and persuasively: the performance deserves it. The mistakes, infuriating for some, will be confusing or misleading for others. And some won't mind one little bit! Cheesy
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #43 on: 20:36:17, 22-01-2008 »

I had a listen to the half hour before the Siegfried instalment, which I had previously skipped, and I was struck by The Creation of the World by Leifs, which seems worth exploring more. I was particularly interested in what the composer said about Wagner's Ring: that he thought it too sentimental and romantic, and that Wagner had failed to understand the Nordic spirit. I dare say there's a lot of truth in that but I don't mind, as I listen to the Ring for the quality of the music rather than a deeper understanding of mythology and whatever it's meant to signify, however invalid an approach to the work that may be. But isn't it interesting that for all Wagner was pushing the boundaries of opera, he came up with something that was essentially of its time? Or maybe you disagree.

And talking of the Nordic spirit, I see that former chess champion Bobby Fischer died recently in Iceland. In one obituary it said that he ended his days drinking coffee in a bookshop in Reykjavik, as though that were such a come down for someone who once ruled the world of chess. Well, I can think of a lot of worse ways of spending my retirement. Bookshops over there are plentiful and many of them stay open until 10pm. Crime is very low and you can walk around late at night without a hint of menace. Chess, bridge and reading and writing are all very popular, such a civilized country it is. And although they seem to take religion more seriously over there than we do, they have a healthy regard for pagan mythology.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #44 on: 14:53:38, 26-01-2008 »

Re John Deathridge and the Gotterdammerung review,

I thought this was the best of the four programmes we've had and that Solti deserved to get the nomination. As someone who's owned the LP, first CD and later remastered CD versions, I can recommend the last one, certainly over the original CD issue. I was very lucky in picking up mine for £20 from a Virgin store, who must have been having a clear out. The only odd thing I cannot understand was that I decided to think about buying it first. I went back an hour later and it was still there. What was there to think about?

I still think that one studio and one live recording is the ideal and I feel pleased with myself for having the Solti and the Keilberth. One way in which the latter scores over Solti in Gotterdammerung, I think, is in the opening norns scene. The Solti is sung and played well enough but there isn't the sense of drama to come that Keilberth has.
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