And then go to his last movements.  He couldn't write last movements, they are invariably a cop-out.  Look at the Piano Concerto - "I can't think of a thing to say, so let's have a good old Lutheran Chorale, always goes down well with the punters.".  So I continue to believe that Brahms was a reactionary ultra-conservative snob who wrote what his doting audience of old Viennese ladies wanted to hear.  No wonder he is labelled as a fusty bore.

To apply the label "post-modernist" to him is really the last desperate step of those who seek to rehabilitate his flagging reputation.  Next you'll be telling us he invented rock'n'roll....

Perhaps that's what "post-modernist" really means - a term used by the tailors of the King's New Clothes as a way of hinting there's more to their second-rate work than meets the ear?

Do indeed - try the glorious finale of the String Sextet in B-flat Op. 18, the monumental fugue at the end of the Handel Variations, the riveting style hongroise finales of the Piano Quartet Op. 25 or (even more) the String Quintet Op. 111, the ultra-tight dramatic pacing in the finales of the second and fourth symphonies in particular, the deceptively 'light' finale of the second Piano Concerto (which moves through such a vast range of different moods, yet all deeply integrated into the total musical argument), the highly intricate reworking of a theme derived from Die Kunst der Fuge in the first Cello Sonata, the type of ecstatic longing in the finale of the second Cello Sonata, the incredibly advanced approach to rhythmic displacement and phrasing in the second Clarinet Sonata, and much much more.


Are you talking about the First Piano Concerto? Which passage do you refer to? I'm not aware of the presence of a Lutheran chorale in the finale of that (or the second). The orchestral writing in slow movement of the first is often thought to reflect Brahms's study of Palestrina, and the F# episode in the slow movement of the second quotes Brahms's own song Todessehnen. The principal theme of the finale of the First Piano Concerto derives from the second subject of the first movement, but in a much more vehement manner. The cadenza clearly has its roots in baroque organ writing - are you thinking of the beginning of the D major section, a development of the initial theme but with a significant change of mood? Or do you have some moment in the finale of the Second Piano Concerto in mind? Quite seriously, if there is a Lutheran chorale quoted in either finale, I'm very interested to know about it - I don't recall any Brahms scholars picking up on that (and I've read the majority of their work). Michael Musgrave suggests a link between the them 'Denn alles Fleisch' from Ein Deutsches Requiem (itself derived from the chorale 'Wer nur den lieben Gott laesst walten') and the theme in both first and last movements of the First Piano Concerto which I was just referring to - is that what you mean? If so, the link is at several removes, and the material is not remotely presented in the manner of a chorale.

By the way, what do you feel when a certain Second Viennese School composer brings in a chorale at the end of their Violin Concerto?


Well, I would argue that Brahms was considerably less snobbish than a lot of other composers of his time (and certainly his own relatively humble origins are somewhat different to those of your average snob). His idiom shows an absorption of German folk music that way exceeds the rather more tokenistic use of it by others. And is there any evidence to suggest that the audiences for his concerts were primarily female or old? Brahms's one-time rather reactionary nationalism (as witnessed in the Triumphlied) was relatively short-lived; Margaret Notley has argued convincingly for his association with liberal, cosmopolitan circles in late 19th-century Vienna; also, he despised the anti-semitism that was then common. Compare this with Debussy, who was an aggressive French nationalist throughout much of his life (some have argued that he essentially shared a common purpose with the ultra-right wing group Action Française). As a composer, Brahms was certainly not drawn towards the grandiose spectacle beloved of Wagner and remained a dogged contrapuntalist, also with a strong interest in early music (of which he edited a fair amount - bear in mind that this was a time when very little such stuff was known by any musicians). But all of the idioms he inhabited he developed (and, as I said before, sometimes undermined) to a very extensive degree. His music couldn't have been written any earlier than it was. 'Conservative'? It depends by which criteria one judges. Certainly Schoenberg didn't think so.


Is Brahms's reputation flagging? I haven't noticed that. If you read the original quote, I was saying that his grounding of most of his works in earlier models would probably be called 'postmodern' today, as that is an aspect of musical composition that theorists of postmodernism tend to stress. And Brahms did this more extensively than any other composer of his time.


Actually, I would not necessarily disagree there (as a staunch opponent of postmodernism). But it all depends how it is done.


P.S. In the context of suppositions concerning Brahms being some sort of Lutheran, it should be pointed out that he was hardly religious at all; even his sacred works speak much more of secular and human matters. He was a wily and highly intelligent man who, when he wasn't pouring through scores (most of the scores in his huge library are studded with incredibly perceptive annotations to the finest details) he liked nothing more than heading down to the pub for a few jars. And his relationships with women may have been somewhat more complicated than sometimes supposed.

"Competent" chamber music! That's one of your best yet! Mein Gott, if I could write chamber music with something approaching 1% of that exalted level of "competence", I would really feel that I had achieved something worthwhile.

I'll ignore your "cop-out" remarks, as this is the most appropriate manner in which to treat them, but I cannot let pass this absurdly antediluvian notion that those who value the greatness of Brahms do so an an excuse to pour contempt upon Wagner; that went out with their century, did it not? - there were indeed such entrenched partisan positions in some quarters during their day, but this certainly did not outlive either composer for very long. Ian and I have each cited Schönberg on Brahms; remember that Schönberg was the composer of Verklärte Nacht, Pelleas und Melisande and Gurrelieder - hardly works evidencing a desire to "rubbish" Wagner, surely?...

I strongly suggest that you get off Brahms (whose relevance to the subject of "post-modernism" is hardly on the radar at all) and contribute something useful to the topic itself - although, whilst no one necessarily expects Brahms's work to appeal to you, if your appreciation of his art is as compromised as you express it, it would seem highly unlikely that you will have much of use to say on "post-modernism" either. I had really assumed at one point that what you'd written about Brahms was a spoof, wind-up or some such thing, but your subsequent tiresome persistence in "rubbishing" (your term) Brahms appears to suggest otherwise. Before you do this, may I suggest that you re-read what Ian has written on Brahms here? Do you really think that it is entirely untenable?

Best,

Alistair

Alastair, if I could just interject to recap how I think we got on to Brahms. As i remember it was re;the general issue of (a) escaping great predecessors when it became clear that he was headed for big portentously-antiscipated (by others)projects, and (b) whether he succesfully integrated his influences fron the past or was  to
any extent a martyr to them, as I had suggested that Schnitkke with what Reiner recalls is dubbed 'polystylism'
seems to have been.
As a general point, there are moments when even great composers, like human beings, falter when you expect
more of them (not many in the case of great composers, but some). As musicians, we rely on these moments
all the more because of the vagaries of our situations, and such is the cultural force of revered figures the
emotions can be powerfully psychodynamic, which is never a trivial business althoiugh its rationales can seem
circumstantial. For a long time I thought Haydn was on a personal mission to render me catatonic (in player mode,258 problematical molto adagio bars rest of 4/2 in the Creation et al) and I still get the judds when Dvorak 8 looms on the schedule. In both cases its the cut and paste cavalierness apparent that irks (the ingenuity -at-enforced contractual speed of  Haydn becomes apparent when you read his letters et al). And this -thanks for bearing with me if you have-is where post-modernism as a legitimate thing or casuistry or ivory tower I think has been grappled with here thus far?
HC Robbins Ln  

I think  forf one I'd be happy to run with your suggestion we move on Alastair, but as you say it has allowed us to take in some useful zeitgeist detours. And presumably we're grappling with similar issues to Johannes back then,
territorially. I wonder if Ian has any plans to play Brahms in recital ? Likely to be a refreshing listen I'd have thought.

I wonder if you might consider some demonstration recitals with the book launch? Brahms thread a great idea-
and the consensus that he's pivotal in several ways should spark a good run.