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« Reply #15 on: 09:53:31, 16-02-2007 » |
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It is appalling, is not it?
Such shocking cynicism concerning one's fellow businesses. I'm appalled.
By the way, I khave master tape for you. Is nice. You should listen. Is by well-known artists. No you do not need to check because I am worthy of trust. You will make kheap of rubles. Would you like to buy watch as well?
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Bryn
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« Reply #16 on: 10:57:01, 16-02-2007 » |
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They are pirates of deleted BIS and Chandos CDs. The 'Cello concerto is played by Torleif Thedeen and the symphony conducted by Valeri Polyansky.
What seems stranger is that whoever supplied Regis with the 'originals' did no just use http://www.chandos.net/CD_Notes.asp?CNumber=CHAN%209550 for both works. |
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JulienSorel
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« Reply #17 on: 11:13:59, 16-02-2007 » |
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Bryn
It would seem strange, but I am obviously suffering from an attack of the Barington-Coupes and making things up allegedly.
It was the Helmerson recording. Unless, of course, it was really Safran, and Ivanov not Polyansky conducted the symphony on the Chandos disc because Polyansky was too busy pretending to be Rene Kohler and conducting the National Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra for Joyce Hatto.
Ahem.
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« Last Edit: 11:15:36, 16-02-2007 by JulienSorel »
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Woodbine
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« Reply #18 on: 12:15:04, 16-02-2007 » |
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I must say, like George, I find this all very sad. It reminds me of the Hitler Diaries or Donald Crowhurst. I found the short excerpt from Ms Cotton's book, flaged up by Bryn on the CMo3 board, very distasteful.(Sorry, cannot bring it up here but easy to find "over there".) To wilfully mis-play a composer's work to "prove" he's a charlatan is down-right childish and smacks of bullying. Are most orchestras like this? Searle was obviouly no Boulez on the podium but that's no excuse. I suppose Bruckner was a useless composer because he could be intimidated by "friends" into re-writings. Berg praised and thanked Bolt for the first broadcast performance of "Wozzeck", although the conductor admitted he did not fully understand the score and, whilst it may have been a very good performance, I doubt if Berg was really too pleased. Some people are kinder than others. I often find the rejoicing at an un-covered fraud more distastful than the fraud itself,( although it would be wise for some to desist from digging. )
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« Last Edit: 14:13:45, 16-02-2007 by Woodbine »
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richard barrett
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« Reply #19 on: 12:36:20, 16-02-2007 » |
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To wilfully mis-play a composer's work to "prove" he's a charlatan is down-right childish and smacks of bullying. Are most orchestras like this? Most orchestras have done similar or worse things at some point or other. Any composer of other than the most "user-friendly" of orchestral music will have a few stories to tell about childish and/or hostile behaviour on the part of orchestra members. What is a composer to do under such circumstances? Getting on one's high horse can only make matters worse, by reinforcing the sense of alienation from the composer already felt by the players, while smiling sweetly and ignoring the behaviour reinforces the sense that the composer neither knows nor cares about whatever silliness is being perpetrated. I blame the circumstances under which orchestral musicians work, rather than the musicians themselves. As for Joyce Hatto, if and when all is finally revealed I also imagine the story will be a sad and tawdry one. It is, however, a cautionary tale for critics who (being journalists after all!!!) ought really to at least have questioned what now seems an obviously suspicious scenario. I'm reminded of the strange story of Han van Meegeren, whose "Vermeers" were accepted as genuine by the entire art-historical community until van Meegeren exposed them as fakes to save his own skin (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_van_Meegeren) and it became "obvious" that they were the work of a scarcely competent forger rather than of one of the greatest and most distinctive painters of all time... |
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Bryn
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« Reply #20 on: 12:49:30, 16-02-2007 » |
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Woodbine, I have to admit I did not read the extract until now. What struck me was that the page contained advertismesnts for both a fraud detection service and for CDs of recordings attributed to Ms. Hatto. I have now read the extract and being familiar with Searle's work, can only see the extract as reflecting most poorly on Ms. Cotton. Searle was by no means ignorant of the what was within the capabilities of the instruments he wrote for, given competent instrumentalists prepared to stretch themselves. Remember, Tchaikovsky faced a similar reaction re. unplayability with regards to his first piano concerto.
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SimonSagt!
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« Reply #21 on: 13:16:42, 16-02-2007 » |
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To wilfully mis-play a composer's work to "prove" he's a charlatan is down-right childish and smacks of bullying. Are most orchestras like this? Most orchestras have done similar or worse things at some point or other. Any composer of other than the most "user-friendly" of orchestral music will have a few stories to tell about childish and/or hostile behaviour on the part of orchestra members. What is a composer to do under such circumstances? Getting on one's high horse can only make matters worse, by reinforcing the sense of alienation from the composer already felt by the players, while smiling sweetly and ignoring the behaviour reinforces the sense that the composer neither knows nor cares about whatever silliness is being perpetrated. I blame the circumstances under which orchestral musicians work, rather than the musicians themselves. I'm surprised that there's any need to "mis-play" some such works. Just playing them straight would be enough to put most people off the more pretentious ones, surely? I'm reminded of a weird squawking piece I heard one night last week - I've no way of knowing whether it was played well or mis-played - but if it was the former then I doubt that any amount of deliberate interference by the orchestra could have made it sound any worse. If I may say so, there seems to be an unwillingness to place the responsibility where it should lie: neither musicians nor circumstances have anything to do with it: they didn't write the stuff. Richard asks "what is a composer to do?" The answer is simple: write music that will be respected as worthwhile and valid by the musicians who are asked to play it. Just like Mozart did. It hardly needs deep psychological insight to understand the principle. |
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The Emperor suspected they were right. But he dared not stop and so on he walked, more proudly than ever. And his courtiers behind him held high the train... that wasn't there at all.
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Woodbine
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« Reply #22 on: 13:27:03, 16-02-2007 » |
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Oh dear, Oh dear, How silly ( of me that is) and I thought a change of address would change the habit of the last 4(?) years. Sorry Richard.
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« Last Edit: 13:43:02, 16-02-2007 by Woodbine »
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richard barrett
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« Reply #23 on: 13:41:26, 16-02-2007 » |
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Searle was by no means ignorant Absolutely, Bryn. I've been investigating Searle's symphonies quite closely of late, and I don't reckon there's anything in his Fourth Symphony which "isn't on the instrument", though there's much that suggests that the musicians look at and think about their music between rehearsals, which, sadly, doesn't happen very often. The Fourth is also the most starkly-scored of the symphonies and any mistake, deliberate or otherwise, is going to stick out a mile, to those who can be bothered to listen anyway. I don't know whether any of the BBCSSO musicians behaved in such a childish way while working with Alun Francis for their CPO recordings of the Searle symphonies, but those performances certainly sound confident and considered, and they're pretty accurate too. Woodbine, no need to apologise. I'm very pleased to be in the position to write music that's respected as worthwhile and valid by the musicians who are asked to play it, some of whom post on this board. |
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #24 on: 13:52:35, 16-02-2007 » |
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Woodbine, I have to admit I did not read the extract until now. What struck me was that the page contained advertismesnts for both a fraud detection service and for CDs of recordings attributed to Ms. Hatto. I have now read the extract and being familiar with Searle's work, can only see the extract as reflecting most poorly on Ms. Cotton. Searle was by no means ignorant of the what was within the capabilities of the instruments he wrote for, given competent instrumentalists prepared to stretch themselves. Remember, Tchaikovsky faced a similar reaction re. unplayability with regards to his first piano concerto.
... or indeed Schubert, when the players in the band for the first performance of the Ninth Symphony declared that there wasn't a single recognisable melody in the piece. Is there any other profession in which the sort of blatant unprofessionalism - and in some cases sheer laziness - shown by some orchestral players would be tolerated? Any doctors or engineers here might want to comment! |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #25 on: 14:05:21, 16-02-2007 » |
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Woodbine, no need to apologise. I'm very pleased to be in the position to write music that's respected as worthwhile and valid by the musicians who are asked to play it, some of whom post on this board.
Indeed so. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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richard barrett
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« Reply #26 on: 16:03:46, 16-02-2007 » |
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I've been following "developments" today over on RMCR, and this reminds me why I abandoned the RMC world some while ago. There are undoubtedly numbers of well-informed and intelligent people over there but they don't half enjoy scoring points off one another at every possible opportunity.
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tapiola
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« Reply #27 on: 17:15:09, 16-02-2007 » |
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Richard
Yes, the debate on RMCR has really cheapened so the whole issue. It seems to be an argument about who has now got more egg on their faces rather than the issue at hand. The whole thing seems to be driven by the fact that too many contributors on RMCR believe that there has to be a right or a wrong in every area of classical music. It has to be said that those who spend a great deal of time stating opinions as fact over there have now become the targets......
Bests
Nick
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"...and woodsprites in the gloom weave magic secrets..."
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richard barrett
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« Reply #28 on: 19:38:19, 16-02-2007 » |
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Mind you, there is an interesting post there by Alistair Hinton in which he draws attention to the fact that very few people have the complete Chopin/Godowsky studies in their repertoire (and that not many more have the "Vingt regards") and only three "other" pianists had recorded the whole set, so it was a highly risky business to release them and think that nobody would ever spot the Grante connection.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #29 on: 19:38:36, 16-02-2007 » |
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Here is another piece of Hatto info (link courtesy of r.m.c.r.): http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/content/contact/hatto_cover.htmlThere will be many hours spent by many people now trying to ascertain the sources of every single one of Joyce Hatto's recordings, methinks.... |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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