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Author Topic: The Hatto Debate  (Read 3285 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #30 on: 19:39:37, 16-02-2007 »

Mind you, there is an interesting post there by Alistair Hinton in which he draws attention to the fact that very few people have the complete Chopin/Godowsky studies in their repertoire (and that not many more have the "Vingt regards") and only three "other" pianists had recorded the whole set, so it was a highly risky business to release them and think that nobody would ever spot the Grante connection.

I believe that recording was particularly doctored in an irregular manner in order to obfuscate its origins as far as possible, for that very reason.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #31 on: 19:59:42, 16-02-2007 »

I've been following "developments" today over on RMCR, and this reminds me why I abandoned the RMC world some while ago. There are undoubtedly numbers of well-informed and intelligent people over there but they don't half enjoy scoring points off one another at every possible opportunity.

RMCR has a rather too-large contingent of right-wing Zionists, neo-conservatives, and old-fashioned American imperialists (not to mention fanatical Islamophobes); all of these people's views seem to colour their musical and other judgements, hence why the group deteriorates quite easily. RMCC is a lot better on the whole, whereas RMO is truly the pits. That said, many of the worst on RMCR have been relatively quiet of late. Hatto has been an ongoing obsession on that board, causing numerous flames, so it was inevitable that this would spiral when the hoax was revealed.

It's quite amazing how, when one person thinks some obscure 1953 piano recording is better than a more well-known 1955 recording, and another disagrees, first of all the usual things are thrown about ('you have no ears', etc., etc.) then later this preference is put down to Nazi sympathies or the like.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
tapiola
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« Reply #32 on: 23:24:51, 16-02-2007 »

Some more info can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Hatto and I see that some more comparisons are now posted on the Pristine Audio website.

If it's proving this easy to find recordings that are essentially identical any possibility of coincidence has clearly evaporated.

We can only wonder at the motives.

Nick
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #33 on: 10:12:06, 17-02-2007 »

Are we going to find this was all set up by Chris Morris?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
JulienSorel
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« Reply #34 on: 10:52:43, 17-02-2007 »

Are we going to find this was all set up by Chris Morris?

Or:

It was an intervention inspired by reading Benjamin's The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction and taking substantial quantities of psychotropic drugs simultaneously but not necessarily at the same time

or:

(as you suggested elsewhere) it's a classic Situationist performance

or:

it was a cheesy con (I wonder how true the 'biography' of Joyce Hatto's early years including her adventures behind the 'Iron Curtain', her meetings with Cortot, Haskil & Richter, her playing the Hammerklavier for Furtwängler, Tippett telling her she should devote herself to Bach etc. etc. is? Perhaps as true as the distastefully manipulative 'biography' of René Köhler, the phantom conductor: surviving the Warsaw Ghetto, brilliant pianist left hand destroyed by a Nazi jackboot, interned by the Soviets for 15 years, ahem)

or:

Think Hitchcock. Barrington-Coupe (crazy name, crazy guy) has been cross-dressing for decades as Joyce Hatto.

Interestinglyish, it seems to have been Jed Distler who made the Transcendental Etudes discovery. Does make you wonder about the whole 'pianophile' business - Jed Distler, Bryce Morrison, Jeremy Nicholas.

Ho, Hum.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #35 on: 10:56:32, 17-02-2007 »

OR

Joyce Hatto is really Lord Lucan? Or Robert Maxwell?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Tam Pollard
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« Reply #36 on: 11:15:59, 17-02-2007 »

A couple of links:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article1398283.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/17/npianist17.xml

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/16/news/hatto.php

The Beeb, for some reason, seems not to have noticed yet.

The IHT article, in some ways the most interesting, as it contains a few quotes from Nichols defending his Gramophone piece - why should he have asked any questions - you don't. And it is true - how do I know that my recording of Mackerras playing Kata really is. Well, I've heard him do Janacek in the opera house and the concert hall (and do it stunningly well), why on earth would I question, the same could be said of any number of other artists in my collection. But with Hatto there were questions. Why had some recordings so few technical inconsistencies (despite being over many years), while others so many. How was she able to do so much while battling illness. When Abbado was very ill a few years back his output dropped marked, similarly Mackerras didn't do as much when he developed problems with one of his arms - and now, at 80 he doesn't perform the biggest works and is slightly cutting back on his workaholic schedule. Brendel has given up the Hammerklavier.

However, those of use who asked any such question (and from memory, most of us who did so, were pretty tactful about it, given the rather unpleasant vitriol of some of her supporters), were criticised rather harshly. I remember Nichols letter in Gramophone a few months later where all the naysayers were pretty well branded as evil - and at the time it did seem that some of the criticism was a little unpleasant (I don't think I actually read anything into the above questions at the time - they just struck me as odd, my main complaint was that I found the music thoroughly unremarkable).

I suppose more will come out over the coming months and I, like, I assume many others, am eager to learn the extent to which Hatto was involved - I find it difficult to believe she never listened to any of the discs she made - which I suppose leaves options that she was either a willing party, or that her producer cynically manipulated her.

Something else occurred to me the last night. I remembered that in the original CD Review segment, McGregor stated that he'd contacted Concert Artists to ask for some discs to play but they had refused to send any (because they'd sent CDs to the BBC before and none had ever been played). At the time it struck me as a little petulant but nothing more (and I suppose understandable). Now, however, I wonder if he was concerned that an excess of publicity might lead to what has happened in the last couple of days.


regards, Tam
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JulienSorel
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« Reply #37 on: 11:32:07, 17-02-2007 »

Tam

Before thie hoax story I'd not payed much attention to the thing, but looking at it what is astonishing is that anyone could have believed the novelettish 'biographical' details. I know that life is meant to be stranger than fiction or vice versa but it's so OTT it reads like a spoof.

And the repertoire gives it away - she played a record collection (within certain parameters) not a repertoire.

As for Jeremy Nicholas's why should he have asked? All of the wild discrepancies of information aside, it's difficult to believe that there's any consistency of approach to these performances. They must sound - even if 'doctored' - as if more than one pianist is playing them. What would be interesting would be to see if Nicholas or Bryce Morrison or whoever reviewed any 'Hatto' recordings in their pre-Hatto incarnation, and what they wrote about them.

"Something else occurred to me the last night. I remembered that in the original CD Review segment, McGregor stated that he'd contacted Concert Artists to ask for some discs to play but they had refused to send any (because they'd sent CDs to the BBC before and none had ever been played). At the time it struck me as a little petulant but nothing more (and I suppose understandable). Now, however, I wonder if he was concerned that an excess of publicity might lead to what has happened in the last couple of days."

I reckon that's right. The con had become too successful.



« Last Edit: 11:35:26, 17-02-2007 by JulienSorel » Logged
BobbyZ
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« Reply #38 on: 11:37:33, 17-02-2007 »

The main BBC site may not have yet picked up on the story but it is on the BBC Music Mag site.

http://www.bbcmusicmagazine.com/newsread.asp?id=27286
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Dreams, schemes and themes
tapiola
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« Reply #39 on: 11:43:14, 17-02-2007 »

Juliensorel

You say that it would be interesting to see what was written about these performances in their 'pre-Hatto' incarnation.....

Take a look on the 'Gramofile' part of the Gramophone website. The Altarus recordings of the Godowsky are reviewed by Bryce Morrison there, and he is very positive as far as I have read.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/gramofilereview.asp?reviewID=9810045&mediaID=174932&issue=Reviewed%3A+Gramophone+10%2F1998

Hope that's useful.

Nick
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Tam Pollard
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« Reply #40 on: 12:29:03, 17-02-2007 »

Julien, just in case it wasn't clear (and reading back I'm not sure it was), I very much agree that Nicholas should have been asking the questions.


Bobby, thanks for the link to BBC Music - there's an interesting quote there from Robert von Bahr (managing director of BIS):

Quote
Assuming that the allegation of László Simon's BIS recording of Liszt's Transcendental Etudes having been copied to and passed off as Joyce Hatto's own recording is true, I would be most interested in the background to this theft. Since the Hatto recordings seem to be very hard to get hold of, and therefore being of a lesser commercial interest, something else must be the reason. Given Ms. Hatto's sickness and fate (unless those were “created”, too), there may be a totally misdirected, but humane, angle to this. Anyway, all credits to László Simon for having created Hatto's benchmark recording!


regards, Tam
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tapiola
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« Reply #41 on: 13:07:02, 17-02-2007 »

Tam

That's a very level-headed response from Robert von Bahr (someone I've always admired anyway!). Given the mud that's being slung around on rec.music.classical.recordings it's actually quite warming that a company that could be directly affected by the 'scandal' is trying to get things into some kind of perspective.

You can imagine....if DGG or any other 'giant' had this happen to them....what would their reaction have been?

Nick
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Tam Pollard
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« Reply #42 on: 13:09:48, 17-02-2007 »

That's exactly what I thought. I don't know anything about the man (though I admire his company for the recordings I own), but to respond in such a gentlemanly way (something I thought was almost gone from business) is worthy of respect.

regards, Tam
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tapiola
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« Reply #43 on: 13:18:14, 17-02-2007 »

It interesting really

There are still some smaller independents such as Bis and Chandos where the sheer pleasure of recording music is the name of the game. In my view it is very much reflected in their recordings too. No games are played with balance, and the performances tend to seem more natural as a result.

When I got back from the Sea Symphony concert last June (as reviewed today on Radio 3) I posted a short article about it on the Chandos forums. Those directly involved in the recording immediately responded, telling us about their excitement in the booth as the performance unfolded. Can you imagine any of the DG engineers wanting to tell us about such things??

Nick
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« Reply #44 on: 22:54:58, 20-02-2007 »

...We can only wonder at the motives.
Love?

This sad story (if that is what it is, rather than something merely grubby) reminds me of the novel How the Dead Live, by Derek Raymond. A deeply moving book - has anybody else here read it?
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