The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
08:38:29, 01-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Downie on John Adams  (Read 1610 times)
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #15 on: 00:01:12, 18-02-2007 »

OK - let me try and clarify.

Sure. Whilst I have slightly different views on the relationship between certain varieties of aesthetic approach and political ideals, Downie is nonetheless talking about 'aesthetic politics' without necessarily making any inferences as regards the personal politics of the composer. It's the work, not the individual behind it, that counts.

Now I am getting confused. I had thought that you (or not necessarily you personally, Ian, but those who use this 'Frankfurt School' type of language) did think that musical conservatism more or less equalled political conservatism. That was, very roughly speaking, why you objected to it. 'Conservative' music was performing a conservative political function and you were against it because you objected to the latter. Or, going a step further, 'fascist' music (which seemed to include some of Stravinsky) was objectionable because it implied fascist politics.

In the case of Sorabji, I do perceive a link between intention and result, as in Stravinsky - in those cases the composer's political views are well-documented.

Quote
Have I misunderstood? And that when you talk about 'right' and 'left' in music you are not implying anything about 'right' and 'left' in the sense they are used in economic/political theory after all?

I tend not to use the specific terms 'right' and 'left' so often in the context of music, and 'conservative' in terms of music (or, in some senses, even, in terms of politics) is not always a dirty word for me. Adorno (and, in a different way, Benjamin before him), influenced by the ideas of Ernst Bloch, Siegfried Kracauer and Max Weber (the latter of whom is really the founding father of music sociology, though his book is extremely hard to get hold of in English these days) made a sharp distinction in his Philosophie der Neuen Musik between two opposing modern tendencies as represented by Schoenberg and Stravinsky, in a political manner. Unlike many later sociologists of music, he focused almost entirely on the works, relatively unconcerned with the private politics, writings, letters, etc., of the composers themselves (and this to my mind makes his work all the more acute). To put it an a very crude and simplified manner, in Schoenberg he saw the continued presence of individual engaged subjective expression (though the nature of Adorno's conception of the 'subject' is very complex, and I'm still not entirely sure if I've got the right end of the stick there), manifested through subjective engagement with the immanent properties of the musical language (for all the problems in the use of the term 'language') inherited, whereas in Stravinsky he saw something of a backlash, a retreat to objectivism, primitivism, and other forms of anti-subjective aesthetic manifestation. Much of Stravinsky's work, to Adorno (with the notable exception of L'Histoire du Soldat, which he admired), refused the possibility of musical development in favour of repetition and extension, which he described as being the 'spatialisation of musical time'. Now, where it gets confusing is with Adorno's invocation of Stravinsky's imposition of his 'taste' upon the music, which might seem something very subjective. But this 'taste' is the act of a disengaged subject, who does not engage with the very historical nature of musical language and all that is sedimented within it as a result. Whereas Schoenberg, on the other hand, was engaging precisely with this. So, in the work itself, Adorno saw in Schoenberg a genuine attempt to interact with the very complexities of modern life as sedimented in inherited musical language; in Stravinsky, on the other hand, he saw a withdrawal from this in favour of some aloof imposition of taste, and cynical application of stylised barbarism. All the latter qualities he saw as akin to fascism and specifically the authoritarian personality. But all of this is, yes, about the compositional subject, but only as manifested in the music.


Quote
I have to say that makes much more sense to me. The idea that writing tonal music is itself a political act furthering a particular view on who should own the means of production, distribution and exchange does, um, take quite a bit of swallowing. But I had thought you were making some connection along those lines, albeit more subtly than that obviously.

Well, I'm not one to criticise tonal (for which I use the broadest definition - to mean music organised around a tonal centre) music per se when written today - indeed there is much of it I think highly of. And whilst I don't think one can really talk meaningfully of 'left-wing' or 'right-wing' music, I do think one can valuably investigate its relationship to the 'aesthetics of distraction' (which is a term that comes from Kraucauer, in his pioneering study of the 'Salaried Masses' in Weimar Germany, and the passifying role of mass culture there). And I would suggest that, overall, the culture industry certain promotes the latter type of aesthetics. And that seems thoroughly a social concern. Music for 'distraction' (which can include some atonal music, though not so often) fulfils a particular social role; those of us who believe music can, and ought do, do more than that are suggesting a different type of function for music or art in general, in which it might communicate something that in some sense is 'true' rather than simply entertaining.

Hope that all makes sense and is reasonably consistent.
« Last Edit: 00:46:12, 18-02-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
SimonSagt!
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 205



« Reply #16 on: 00:23:09, 18-02-2007 »



  those of us who believe music can, and ought do, do more than that are suggesting a different type of function for music or art in general, in which it might communicate something that in some sense is 'true' rather than simply entertaining.



But music - great music, at least - certainly does communicate something that is true, in addition to being "entertaining" - for which I read "moving". It communicates true emotions and is, at its best, an example of the greatness of the human spirit and of the human mind. At its absolute zenith, it communicates feelings of humanity's ability to rise up above mere life and to touch something greater than we can mentally comprehend. This is far beyond what you appear to be writing about, which appears to me as social or political comment. Of course, I may well have misunderstood and apologise if that is the case.

I am reminded of one of the finest poems I have ever read:

High Flight

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

 
by Pilot Officer Gillespie Magee
No 412 squadron, RCAF.  Killed in action on 11 December 1941


Music can do this, too, I think.

bws S-S!
 
Logged

The Emperor suspected they were right. But he dared not stop and so on he walked, more proudly than ever. And his courtiers behind him held high the train... that wasn't there at all.
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #17 on: 00:45:40, 18-02-2007 »


But music - great music, at least - certainly does communicate something that is true, in addition to being "entertaining" - for which I read "moving". It communicates true emotions and is, at its best, an example of the greatness of the human spirit and of the human mind. At its absolute zenith, it communicates feelings of humanity's ability to rise up above mere life and to touch something greater than we can mentally comprehend.

No disagreement with that in essence; I would just ask how exactly it can do that, and suggest it has something to do with a engaged subjectivity that can interact with historically sedimented musical tropes and processes without simply reiterating them, so as to go 'beyond', but not in a way that is meaningless.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Anna
Guest
« Reply #18 on: 00:58:22, 18-02-2007 »

Well, I have charles mingus on at the mo, Freedom,  which moves me, but it is probably an engaged subjectivity, engaged subjectivity that can interact with historically sedimented musical tropes blah blah blah blah

Can I say it moves me because he is black and he is talking about his brothers and sisters or is that too outrageous and non PC?
Logged
ernani
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 165



« Reply #19 on: 01:00:24, 18-02-2007 »

Hi Ian,

Have been reading this thread with interest. I wonder if you know the fairly recent volume edited by Regina Schwartz called Transcendence: Philosophy, Literature, and Theology Approach the Beyond (London and New York: Routledge, 2004), which tries to offer some answers to these kinds of questions, albeit problematically?
« Last Edit: 01:07:46, 18-02-2007 by ernani » Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #20 on: 01:01:34, 18-02-2007 »

Well, I have charles mingus on at the mo, Freedom,  which moves me, but it is probably an engaged subjectivity, engaged subjectivity that can interact with historically sedimented musical tropes blah blah blah blah

Can I say it moves me because he is black and he is talking about his brothers and sisters or is that too outrageous and non PC?

Of course, and he's responding to that fact at a particular historical moment, and making that manifest in his music. And he is using the language of jazz as it existed up to that point, but extending and developing it much further in a highly subjective manner.

Which album, incidentally? - [Delete that comment! - somehow I overlooked the word 'Freedom' I don't have a copy of that one, or else I would have shoved it into the CD player right now, in your honour!]
« Last Edit: 01:04:03, 18-02-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #21 on: 01:02:19, 18-02-2007 »

Hi Ian,

Have been reading this thread with interest. I wonder if you know the fairly recent volume edited by Regina Schwartz called Transcendence: Philosophy Literature, and Theology Approach the Beyond (London and New York: Routledge, 2004), which tries to offer some answers to these kinds of questions, albeit problematically?

No, I don't, will look it up - thanks for the recommendation!
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Anna
Guest
« Reply #22 on: 01:29:41, 18-02-2007 »

Ian, the Mingus is The Town Hall Concert, I think 1962, and when he talks about people being strung up and being burnt, then he urges stand fast, stand fast

It's not a question of "he's responding to that fact at a particular historical moment, and making that manifest in his music. "

It's a question of oppression and continuing oppression and no arty-farty nonsense phrases can deny the oppression

Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #23 on: 01:32:05, 18-02-2007 »

Ian, the Mingus is The Town Hall Concert, I think 1962, and when he talks about people being strung up and being burnt, then he urges stand fast, stand fast

It's not a question of "he's responding to that fact at a particular historical moment, and making that manifest in his music. "

It's a question of oppression and continuing oppression and no arty-farty nonsense phrases can deny the oppression


The last thing I'd want to do is deny the oppression - but that oppression was absolutely a fact of that historical moment. And it can plausibly be argued that the very idioms of jazz grew out of black Americans' musical responses to oppression. I don't think that is an 'arty-farty nonsense phrase'.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #24 on: 01:33:12, 18-02-2007 »

Should just add to that that while I'm saying that the oppression was a feature of that historical moment, that is in no sense to deny the continuing prevalence of racial oppression in the US today.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Anna
Guest
« Reply #25 on: 01:48:02, 18-02-2007 »

Ian

I just get so teed off about people dismissing jazz I tend to lash out. Sorry
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #26 on: 01:54:50, 18-02-2007 »

Ian

I just get so teed off about people dismissing jazz I tend to lash out. Sorry

It's fine.

(from a fellow Mingus fan!)
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
George Garnett
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3855



« Reply #27 on: 13:14:31, 18-02-2007 »

Thanks for that, Ian i.e. Message...., oh, they don't have numbers*. This one:

OK - let me try and clarify.....

......Hope that all makes sense and is reasonably consistent.

Very helpful. I think I can see a bit more clearly what you are driving at. Consistent, certainly. Agreeing that it is true might be a different matter Cheesy. I suspect, well, a bit more than suspect, that we come to all this bearing rather different world-view grids and I have to put on the conceptual equivalent of one of those virtual reality helmets to get the point sometimes. My guess is that you and I took significantly different turnings at the crossroad marked Max Weber, or possibly even futher back at the spaghetti junction marked Hegel. But I appreciate the discussion and thanks for spelling it out.

Did I pick up that there might even be a book on this whole area sometime?


(*Oh, and Doh, they do have numbers. Reply 15)
« Last Edit: 13:17:22, 18-02-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #28 on: 13:45:03, 18-02-2007 »

Thanks for that, Ian i.e. Message...., oh, they don't have numbers*. This one:

OK - let me try and clarify.....

......Hope that all makes sense and is reasonably consistent.

Very helpful. I think I can see a bit more clearly what you are driving at. Consistent, certainly. Agreeing that it is true might be a different matter Cheesy. I suspect, well, a bit more than suspect, that we come to all this bearing rather different world-view grids and I have to put on the conceptual equivalent of one of those virtual reality helmets to get the point sometimes. My guess is that you and I took significantly different turnings at the crossroad marked Max Weber, or possibly even futher back at the spaghetti junction marked Hegel. But I appreciate the discussion and thanks for spelling it out.

Well, I should point out that I there are many areas in which I take issue with Adorno - I suppose where I'm coming from in terms of aesthetics and politics stems from an attempt to reconcile parts of Adorno, Benjamin, Brecht and Bourdieu (not easy to do!), with some other more distant influences from Deleuze and elsewhere, and other ideas of my own. And especially from a profound scepticism towards post-modernist ideologies. But overall, the tradition stemming from Hegel and Marx still has a lot to offer, IMO, more so than that of Anglo-American positivism. Adorno's thought in particular is often received with great scepticism in the English-speaking countries; some of that scepticism is certainly warranted, with respect to his dogmatism, his extremely monolithic view of the culture industry, and a certain obsessiveness deriving from his traumatised response to fascism (not that I'm blaming him for that, but I think some of his powerful attempts to view fascism as a historical phenomenon, which run right up to the Dialektik der Aufklärung, lost their way in the later years as Auschwitz came to assume a quasi-ontological role in his thinking). But I still think he was an absolutely brilliant and penetrating thinker, whose convictions on the role of the subject in artistic production, the relationship between popular culture and the aesthetics of commerce, on Wagner, on 'political art', on the domination of the subject under late capitalism, and on the deterioriation of Enlightenment principles into 'instrumentalised reason', science and rationality as a form of domination of nature which ultimately encompasses the domination of other human beings (as part of nature), are massively insightful and way ahead of their time.

Quote
Did I pick up that there might even be a book on this whole area sometime?

There are a few good books on this subject. Max Paddison's two books - Adorno, Modernism and Mass Culture and Adorno's Aesthetics of Music - are both extremely good, the latter very involved and quite a strenuous read. Also the various extended commentaries by Richard Leppert in his large volume of Adorno's Essays on Music. Martin Jay's Fontana book on Adorno, and his The Dialectical Imagination, an intellectual history of the Frankfurt School, are also fine books. There are many others, in English and German, too numerous to list. Much other writing on music sociology in English, however, comes from a very different angle, essentially the post-modernist aesthetics that are characteristic of the New Musicology, which I argue constitute a reactionary, market-oriented ideology under the guise of identity politics. Quite a bit of this work does allude to Adorno, but usually from a highly superficial reading or misreading of the work, taking out of context a few choice phrases which actually form part of a dialectical constellation. The most read work of Adorno by musicians, at least until recently, was the Philosophie der Neuen Musik (I'd say the Introduction to the Sociology of Music, or various of the essays in the Leppert volume are a better place to start). This work was in what was widely agreed to be a very poor translation; happily a much better one (by Robert Hullot-Kentor) was published last year. But also, Adorno himself saw this book as an extension of the Dialektik der Aufklärung, and it is more difficult to read without some knowledge of the latter. Reading Adorno's musical writings in isolation is very tricky for those unfamiliar with the wider philosophical background from which he is coming (including the various concepts and terms from Marxist theory). What I've never yet seen is a book in English looking comparatively at German and Anglo-American music sociology, with a proper knowledge of both, and this is very much needed, I think. I taught a big course on Classical Music and Society last year, in which Adorno featured extensively, and may at some point (after finishing various other projects) try and write a book based on this course. My experience was that Adorno didn't have to be so impenetrable to students if they were primed about the basic ideas, concepts, and methodologies (very different to anything that one commonly finds in Anglo-American approaches) in advance.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
George Garnett
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3855



« Reply #29 on: 14:55:53, 18-02-2007 »

Quote
I taught a big course on Classical Music and Society last year, in which Adorno featured extensively, and may at some point.......try and write a book based on this course.

I thought I had picked up something to that effect in an earlier posting somewhere. It sounds well worth doing even for (or perhaps especially for) those of us who are resistant to and more than sceptical about the whole Adorno/Frankfurt School starting point. I hope it comes off. I was going to say I'm sure there will be a niche market for it but perhaps that isn't quite the thing to say in the circumstances

In the meantime it's nonetheless a pleasure to agree to differ. (I wouldn't say positivism and post-modernism are the only other shows in town by the way. There is still the odd neo-Kantian lurking in the undergrowth. It's sort of where I still place my money.)
« Last Edit: 14:59:56, 18-02-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to: